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Post by judywaits4u on Dec 8, 2005 1:56:30 GMT -5
Judy, I understood you're point. I was merely adding some extra information for those lurkers, so they won't think that we think only about the innocent on DR. Look at Derrick Brown's case. You can find his information on our 1prison.com website. Dear Suzanne, Ok, I see what you mean. What I do not understand is this Pro idea that we would be happy if an innocent person was given LWOP. Of course we are not happy about an innocent person ending up in prison serving LWOP. I do not see any comparison with an innocent person being executed. The only connection being that if a person serving LWOP is found to be innocent after twenty years or more, the person can be released from prison. If an innocent person is executed and they find out five minutes after he has been executed, all you can do is to release their dead body. Love and hugs, Judy
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Post by attitude on Dec 8, 2005 3:35:59 GMT -5
I understand CCADP is a anti-capitalpunishment group and not a legal assistance group (ie whose core mission is to deal with those who claim they are wrongfully convicted) I don't necessarily agree with Anna's comments, I think that the reason why you do not talk about is that the core focus of this group is to focus on DR inmates Judy, I understood you're point. I was merely adding some extra information for those lurkers, so they won't think that we think only about the innocent on DR. Look at Derrick Brown's case. You can find his information on our 1prison.com website. Dear Suzanne, Ok, I see what you mean. What I do not understand is this Pro idea that we would be happy if an innocent person was given LWOP. Of course we are not happy about an innocent person ending up in prison serving LWOP. I do not see any comparison with an innocent person being executed. The only connection being that if a person serving LWOP is found to be innocent after twenty years or more, the person can be released from prison. If an innocent person is executed and they find out five minutes after he has been executed, all you can do is to release their dead body. Love and hugs, Judy
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Post by skyloom on Dec 8, 2005 10:19:41 GMT -5
I understand CCADP is a anti-capital punishment group and not a legal assistance group (ie whose core mission is to deal with those who claim they are wrongfully convicted) I don't necessarily agree with Anna's comments, I think that the reason why you do not talk about is that the core focus of this group is to focus on DR inmates Do not talk about what? LWOP? I have seen several websites that focus on wrongful convictions and why they happen. This is one of my own favorites: www.innocenceproject.org/It is a matter of resources, though. Even the Innocence Project has to limit itself to representing individuals who face execution. They do have a thorough discussion of the problems in the U.S. justice system and there's more than enough there for anyone to address... even in cases where capital punishment is not an issue. Unfortunately, it seems that capital cases seem to draw out the abusers more often. Maybe that's because the public is already predisposed to fear and despise the accused and less willing to demand objectivity and fairness.
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Post by sclcookie on Dec 8, 2005 14:26:29 GMT -5
Judy, I understood you're point. I was merely adding some extra information for those lurkers, so they won't think that we think only about the innocent on DR. Look at Derrick Brown's case. You can find his information on our 1prison.com website. Dear Suzanne, Ok, I see what you mean. What I do not understand is this Pro idea that we would be happy if an innocent person was given LWOP. Of course we are not happy about an innocent person ending up in prison serving LWOP. I do not see any comparison with an innocent person being executed. The only connection being that if a person serving LWOP is found to be innocent after twenty years or more, the person can be released from prison. If an innocent person is executed and they find out five minutes after he has been executed, all you can do is to release their dead body. Love and hugs, Judy Yes, exactly ! hugggz, Suzanne
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Post by sclcookie on Dec 8, 2005 14:33:37 GMT -5
I understand CCADP is a anti-capitalpunishment group and not a legal assistance group (ie whose core mission is to deal with those who claim they are wrongfully convicted) I don't necessarily agree with Anna's comments, I think that the reason why you do not talk about is that the core focus of this group is to focus on DR inmates Dear Suzanne, Ok, I see what you mean. What I do not understand is this Pro idea that we would be happy if an innocent person was given LWOP. Of course we are not happy about an innocent person ending up in prison serving LWOP. I do not see any comparison with an innocent person being executed. The only connection being that if a person serving LWOP is found to be innocent after twenty years or more, the person can be released from prison. If an innocent person is executed and they find out five minutes after he has been executed, all you can do is to release their dead body. Love and hugs, Judy Oh, no! That's one thing you are mistaken about. We deal with all DR inmates. No DR inmate should be executed. We post things from those who do not claim wrongful convictions. We write those who do not claim wrongful convictions. We fight to save ALL their lives. Cyclone, if a DR inmate is fighting for their life and to have their conviction changed to Life or LWOP, it would not be very smart for us to say right here that we believe they are guilty or they confided in us that they are guilty. We don't publicize everything we do for all inmates. We fight for the lives of ALL DR inmates. hugggz, Suzanne
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Post by attitude on Dec 8, 2005 20:52:02 GMT -5
Thats what I was trying to say. CCADP's focus is on assisting DR inmates and the abolition of the death penalty. Thats why you don't necessarilty see discussion about the innocent who are serving LWOp or less becuase that is not the focus of this board I understand CCADP is a anti-capitalpunishment group and not a legal assistance group (ie whose core mission is to deal with those who claim they are wrongfully convicted) I don't necessarily agree with Anna's comments, I think that the reason why you do not talk about is that the core focus of this group is to focus on DR inmates Oh, no! That's one thing you are mistaken about. We deal with all DR inmates. No DR inmate should be executed. We post things from those who do not claim wrongful convictions. We write those who do not claim wrongful convictions. We fight to save ALL their lives. Cyclone, if a DR inmate is fighting for their life and to have their conviction changed to Life or LWOP, it would not be very smart for us to say right here that we believe they are guilty or they confided in us that they are guilty. We don't publicize everything we do for all inmates. We fight for the lives of ALL DR inmates. hugggz, Suzanne
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Post by sclcookie on Dec 9, 2005 13:22:01 GMT -5
Thats what I was trying to say. CCADP's focus is on assisting DR inmates and the abolition of the death penalty. Thats why you don't necessarilty see discussion about the innocent who are serving LWOp or less becuase that is not the focus of this board Oh, no! That's one thing you are mistaken about. We deal with all DR inmates. No DR inmate should be executed. We post things from those who do not claim wrongful convictions. We write those who do not claim wrongful convictions. We fight to save ALL their lives. Cyclone, if a DR inmate is fighting for their life and to have their conviction changed to Life or LWOP, it would not be very smart for us to say right here that we believe they are guilty or they confided in us that they are guilty. We don't publicize everything we do for all inmates. We fight for the lives of ALL DR inmates. hugggz, Suzanne Oh, yes, you got it, thanks. hugggz, Suzanne
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Post by spearmint on Dec 25, 2005 10:18:39 GMT -5
Here is a brief summary of murders which occured because the death penalty was either not carried out of not given after the first murder. We can expect more such murders resulting from the success of anti-death penalty activists in stopping executions in capital murder cases! This article reminds of the inevitable murders which follow when the death penalty is not implemented after the first murder. www.thenewamerican.com/focus/cap_punishment/vo06no17_murders.htm Murders That Could Have Been Averted By Capital Punishment • Some 80 years ago, Charles Fitzgerald killed a deputy sheriff and was given a 100-year prison sentence as a result. He was released after serving just 11 years, and in 1926 murdered a California policeman. He was given "life" for that killing, but was paroled in 1971. • In 1931, "Gypsy" Bob Harper, who had been convicted of murder, escaped from a Michigan prison and killed two persons. After being recaptured, he then killed the prison warden and his deputy. • In 1936, former FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover reported the case of a Florida prisoner who committed two murders, received clemency for each, and then murdered twice more. On March 17, 1971 Hoover told a congressional subcommittee that 19 of the killers responsible for the murder of policemen during the 1960s had been previously convicted of murder. • In 1951, Joseph Taborsky was sentenced to death in Connecticut for murder, but was freed when the courts ruled that the chief witness against him (his brother) had been mentally incompetent to testify. In 1957, Taborsky was found guilty for another murder, for which he was electrocuted in May 1960. Before his execution, he confessed to the 1951 murder. • In 1952, Allen Pruitt was arrested for the knife slaying of a newsstand operator and sentenced to life in prison. In 1965, he was charged with fatally stabbing a prison doctor and an assistant prison superintendent, but was found not guilty by reason of insanity. In 1968, his 1952 conviction was overturned on a technicality by the Virginia Supreme Court. He was re-tried, again found guilty, but given a 20-year sentence instead of life. Since he had already served 18 years, and had some time off for "good behavior," he was released. On December 31, 1971 he was arrested and charged in the murder of two men in Spartanburg, South Carolina. • In 1957, Richard Biegenwald murdered a store owner during a robbery in New Jersey. He was convicted, but given a life sentence rather than death. After serving 17 years, he was paroled. He violated his parole, was returned to prison, but was again paroled in 1980, after which he shot and killed an 18-year-old Asbury Park, New Jersey girl. He also killed three other 17-year-old New Jersey girls and a 34-year-old man. • A man convicted of murder in Oklahoma pleaded with the judge and jury to impose the death sentence, but was given life instead. He later killed a fellow inmate and was executed for the second killing in 1966. • In 1972, Arthur James Julius was convicted of murder and sentenced to life in prison. In 1978, he was given a brief leave from prison, during which he raped and murdered a cousin. He was sentenced to death for that crime and was executed on November 17, 1989. • In 1976, Jimmy Lee Gray (who was free on parole from an Arizona conviction for killing a 16-year-old high school girl) kidnapped, sodomized, and suffocated a three-year-old Mississippi girl. He was executed for that second killing on September 2, 1983. • Also in 1976, Timothy Charles Palmes was on probation for an earlier manslaughter conviction when he and two accomplices robbed and brutally murdered a Florida furniture store owner. Palmes was executed for the killing on November 8, 1984. An accomplice, Ronald Straight, was executed on May 20, 1986. (The other accomplice, a woman, was granted immunity for testifying for the prosecution.) • In 1978, Wayne Robert Felde, while being taken to jail in handcuffs, pulled a gun hidden in his pants and killed a policeman. At the time, he was a fugitive from a work release program in Maryland, where he had been convicted of manslaughter. • In 1979, Donald Dillbeck was convicted and sentenced to 25 years in prison for murdering a Florida sheriffs deputy. In 1983, he tried to escape. In January of this year he was transferred to a minimum-security facility. On June 22nd, he walked away from a ten-inmate crew catering a school banquet. Two days later, he was arrested and charged with stabbing a woman to death at a Tallahassee shopping mall. • In 1981, author Norman Mailer and many other New York literati embraced convicted killer Jack Henry Abbott (who had murdered a fellow prison inmate) and succeeded in having him released early from a Utah prison. On July 18, 1981 (six-weeks after his release), Abbott stabbed actor Richard Adan to death in New York. He was convicted of manslaughter and received a 15-year-to-life sentence. Mrs. Adan sued Abbott for her husband's wrongful death and her pain and suffering. On June 15, 1990, a jury awarded her nearly $7.6 million. • On October 22, 1983 at the federal penitentiary in Marion, Illinois, two prison guards were murdered in two separate instances by inmates who were both serving life terms for previously murdering inmates. On November 9, 1983 Associate U.S. Attorney General D. Lowell Jensen told a Senate subcommittee that it is impossible to punish or even deter such prison murders because, without a death sentence, a violent life-termer has free rein "to continue to murder as opportunity and his perverse motives dictate." • On December 7, 1984 Benny Lee Chaffin kidnapped, raped, and murdered a 9-year-old Springfield, Oregon girl. He had been convicted of murder once before in Texas, but not executed. Incredibly, the same jury that convicted him for killing the young girl refused to sentence him to death because two of the 12 jurors said they could not determine whether or not he would be a future threat to society! • Thomas Eugene Creech, who had been convicted of three murders and had claimed a role in more than 40 killings in 13 states as a paid killer for a motorcycle gang, killed a fellow prison inmate in 1981 and was sentenced to death. In 1986 his execution was stayed by a federal judge and has yet to be carried out. • When he was 14, Dalton Prejean killed a taxi driver. When he was 17, he gunned down a state trooper in Lafayette, Louisiana. Despite protests from the American Civil Liberties Union and other abolitionist groups, Prejean was executed for the second murder on May 18, 1990.
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Post by judywaits4u on Dec 27, 2005 7:05:56 GMT -5
Dear Anna, How would CP solve this any better than them being kept in prison and the prison gaurds doing their job properly. Prison escapes here in Britain are very rare and the last high security prisoner to escape was probably Ronald Biggs in the 1960s.
Best wishes, Judy
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Post by spearmint on Dec 27, 2005 17:50:08 GMT -5
Dear Anna, How would CP solve this any better than them being kept in prison and the prison gaurds doing their job properly. Prison escapes here in Britain are very rare and the last high security prisoner to escape was probably Ronald Biggs in the 1960s. Best wishes, Judy Dearest I truly wish i could provide some magical solution. CP is a deterrent and not a "cure all solution". I remain convinced that CP is a greater deterrent than LWOP, but even with CP murders will continue, even if some murderers think twice and refrain from this horrific act of evil. The cynical sick joke below reflects the attitude of many lifers in prison. When the death penalty is not a possibility and no deterrent exists greater than endless imprisonment, which is already the case with many lifers, their response to this foolish or at best risky system, which generally sees solitary confinement as cruel and unusual, is reflected in the sick joke below. °°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°° Q: What's the difference between 17 consecutive life sentences and 18 consecutive life sentences-each for a murder? A: With 18 consecutive life sentences for 18 murders the murderer is one step closer to claiming a place in the prestigueous "Guiness Book of Records" for the most consecutive life sentences for individual murders ever received by a murderer in recorded history. °°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°° The sad truth is that in this cruel world all of our "world views" or opinions conerning criminal justice have consequences which we cannot be expected to fathom as mere mortals. All of these consequences condemn some to death and save others. Suzanne is right when from her point of view when she criticises my slogan: "Protect the Innocent", because every action we take can theoretically claim innocent lives. Non-action certainly is deadly, if not more deadly, too.
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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Apr 3, 2008 21:22:46 GMT -5
I am certainly no extremist pro and i believe the "lesser murderers" can often be rehabilitated and we should take the risk! The "worst of the worst", felon murderers and hobby murderers will often exploit the inevitable human margin of error in even the most secure prisons to strike again. The felon murderer Clarence Allen was able to organise the murder of people outside of prison. www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/US/allen1005.htmSummary: In 1974, Allen and his son burglarized Fran's Market, owned by Ray and Fran Schletewitz, whom Allen had known for years. The girlfriend of Allen's son, 17 year old Mary Sue Kitts, eventually told the Schletewitz family that Allen was responsible and that she helped cash the checks that were stolen. Allen then ordered a hit on Kitts. The teen was strangled and thrown into the Friant-Kern Canal. Her body was never found. In 1977, a jury convicted Allen of burglary, conspiracy and first-degree murder. He was sentenced to life without parole. While at Folsom Prison, Allen solicited the help of Billy Ray Hamilton, who was soon to be paroled, to eliminate eight prosecution witnesses so they would not be around for a retrial if he won his appeal. Allen did not know Rocha or White, but he wanted Bryon Schletewitz, Raymond Schletewitz and six others dead for testifying against him during his 1977 trial. Upon release, Hamilton and his girlfriend, Connie Barbo, lingered in Fran's Market until they were the last customers. Hamilton pulled out a sawed-off shotgun, and Barbo drew a .32-caliber revolver. They herded all the employees toward the stockroom and ordered them to lie on the floor, including the son of the store owner, Byron Schletewitz, age 27, and employees Douglas White, age 18, and Josephine Rocha, age 17. Schletewitz volunteered to give the couple all the money they wanted. He then led Hamilton into the stockroom. Once inside, Hamilton pointed the shotgun at Schletewitz's forehead and shot him from less than a foot away. Hamilton came out of the room and turned to White and said, "OK, big boy, where's the safe?" White responded, "Honest, there's no safe." Hamilton shot him in the neck and chest at point-blank range. Rocha began crying. Hamilton shot her two or three times from about five feet away. The shots pierced her heart, lung and stomach. Rios had managed to escape to the bathroom. Hamilton pushed his way in, stood three feet away and fired, according to the documents. Rios raised his arm just in time, and the shot entered his elbow, saving his life. Jack Abbott, who lived next to the market, grabbed his gun and came outside when he heard the shots. He and Hamilton exchanged fire, and Hamilton fled after being shot in the foot. Police arrived and found Barbo hiding in the market. Hamilton was arrested a week later after trying to rob a Modesto liquor store and now is on Death Row with Allen. A hit list containing names and addresses of the eight trial witnesses was found on him when he was arrested. It's what linked him to Allen, who has always denied ordering the killings.
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Post by happyhaddock on Apr 4, 2008 10:07:54 GMT -5
I am certainly no extremist pro and i believe the "lesser murderers" can often be rehabilitated and we should take the risk! The "worst of the worst", felon murderers and hobby murderers will often exploit the inevitable human margin of error in even the most secure prisons to strike again. The felon murderer Clarence Allen was able to organise the murder of people outside of prison. ... Which is an argument for more secure or restrictive prisons, not for killing people just in case they contact someone who just happens to be willing to commit more crimes. Is there any constitutional argument for killing people just in case?
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Post by equaljustice on Apr 6, 2008 11:01:36 GMT -5
In what instance is life ever completely fair? When you live and exist in a society that has defined very clearly what is right and wrong it benefits us all to try and live and let live. If you kill another you may find the system you live in has very sharp teeth. Best to live and let live I say. If you become your own God and decide to take a life you may come up against a larger God that will seek revenge on you for the life you took. We live in a (group think) world, if you commit an (individualized) crime you will most likely be lost in the numbers. Dont kill others, don't allow yourself to be killed by the system you live in.
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Post by happyhaddock on Apr 16, 2008 13:11:18 GMT -5
In what instance is life ever completely fair? When you live and exist in a society that has defined very clearly what is right and wrong it benefits us all to try and live and let live. If you kill another you may find the system you live in has very sharp teeth. Best to live and let live I say. If you become your own God and decide to take a life you may come up against a larger God that will seek revenge on you for the life you took. We live in a (group think) world, if you commit an (individualized) crime you will most likely be lost in the numbers. Dont kill others, don't allow yourself to be killed by the system you live in. 'System'? Your likelihood of getting the DP is influenced more by media interest than by anything else. Some 'system'!
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Post by andie on Apr 19, 2008 11:45:16 GMT -5
Well as a Pro, I do have a reasoning ability, mind you that before I educated myself within the criminal justice system, my opinion was based on lack of understanding of how the system works...however with that being said, I have an open mind but i am still a pro who hates murder. Now even though in the usa the execution of a prisoner is legal (and that is a fact) for a prisoner to kill another prisoner is still murder and therefore wrong. Now I know what your thinking--the state murders so how does that have any relevance when it is the same thing--but it's not..again one is legal and the other is still illegal. Now if someone was executed in New Jersey, then that would be a problem. I feel so sorry for the Pros. They are so blinded with their hate that they have no reasoning ability. They see hate and only hate. It must be a sad way to live. This was written by a Pro. This Pro actually compares the hazzards of riding in a plane with executing someone. As for the penal system accidentally executing an innocent person, I must point out that in this imperfect world, nothing that is worth having comes without risk. After all, far, far more innocent lives have been taken by convicted murderers than the supposedly 23 innocents mistakenly executed this century. In fact, there is absolutely no evidence that the death penalty in this country has ever executed even ONE innocent in the past century! Also consider that thousands of American citizens are murdered each year by released and paroled criminals. These are the serious flaws in life sentences that abolitionists prefer to trivialize to nonexistence. There is no doubt whatsoever that keeping murderers alive is far, far more dangerous to innocents than putting them to death. Also, the death penalty isn't the only institution that contain risks in exchange for social benifits. We, in fact, mindlessly use far more dangerous institutions that take the lives of innocents by the hundreds every day, like the three or four tons of lethal metal we call automobiles for example. After all, how can we accept the average 45,000 person a year death toll in this nation due to car wrecks for our personal conveniences when the slim risk of a wrongful execution is so unbearable? Following the lines of that logic, we not only would have to sacrifice our vehicles, we would have to sacrifice the personal conveniences of using electricity and fire because of the lives they have taken. We would have to go back to living in caves because of our fear of taking risks for social benefits. Indeed, we accept and use far too many devices and institutions that kill far too many hundreds of innocents each and every day to justify focusing this much paranoia on the slimest and unlikely of risks. In fact, as far as abolitionists are concerned, anything can kill any number of innocents with absolute impunity so long as they don't harm murderers. To enjoy the privilege of using cars, airplanes, or any other device that improve the quality of our lives, we accept the risks and deaths that are caused by them completely in order to reap their full benefits. The same concept applies for the death penalty only on a far lesser scale. As long as we're entitled to recklessley endanger hundreds of innocent lives daily for our personal convieneinces, then surely we sould be allowed to take on lesser risks for something far less selfish and self serving like public safety. Every institution that is of great benifit to society always contain risks. The death penalty happens to be the least dangerous of them, yet it is focused on with the most paranoia. I find this Pathetic.
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