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Post by biglinmarshall on Oct 15, 2008 6:42:33 GMT -5
I STILL support the death penalty as the punishment for the worst murderers. That doesn't mean I support torture or any other type of brutality. The government has been proven incompetent over and over again. Consider their performance at all levels for hurricane Katrina - something they knew about days in advance. There is far too much incompetence and corruption at all levels. The DP requires perfection - none have ever attained such a level in history. Government incompetence has nothing to do with the issue of the death penalty and it's dishonest to pretend that it has. To say that the death penalty requires 'perfection' is also simply an OPINION and NOT a fact. If you are going to adopt that attitude then you have to take the same approach to ALL forms of punishment from fines, probation, community service and imprisonment. I am NOT one of those people who believes that everyone who gets convicted is guilty. I KNOW from personal experience that the opposite is true. On the other hand, the MAJORITY of people on DR really ARE guilty. Do you seriously suggest that Richard Ramirez or Christa Pike are innocent? Do you seriously suggest that there is ANY doubt about their guilt and that IF your objection to the DP is based on the 'innocence' argument then your only logical conclusion is to SUPPORT their execution. If you oppose the DP for moral reasons that's different and I can respect that. If you believe that SOME inmates may be innocent I can accept that too though I have to say the figures are not encouraging. IMHO there have been possibly 5 innocent people executed in the US in the last 100 years. I don't think any have been executed since 1976 though I do admit to objecting strenuously to the recent execution of someone who did NOT kill anyone under the disgusting and Third World-like 'law of parties.'
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Post by pumpkinpie on Oct 15, 2008 9:46:06 GMT -5
And there have been 130 exonerations from death row since the 1970's.
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Post by happyhaddock on Oct 15, 2008 11:22:47 GMT -5
The government has been proven incompetent over and over again. Consider their performance at all levels for hurricane Katrina - something they knew about days in advance. There is far too much incompetence and corruption at all levels. The DP requires perfection - none have ever attained such a level in history. Government incompetence has nothing to do with the issue of the death penalty and it's dishonest to pretend that it has. To say that the death penalty requires 'perfection' is also simply an OPINION and NOT a fact. Rubbish. 'Oops' is not a sufficient response to the execution of an innocent person. Until you can show a reliable method to bring someone back from the dead, even decades after their execution, it is unsafe to leave this in the hands of the state and all appeals to continue the practice are appeals for bloody revenge. I have no doubt at all that persons who were innocent have been executed. This has made every citizen a murderer, since it was done in their name.
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Post by biglinmarshall on Oct 15, 2008 13:41:18 GMT -5
The government has been proven incompetent over and over again. Consider their performance at all levels for hurricane Katrina - something they knew about days in advance. There is far too much incompetence and corruption at all levels. The DP requires perfection - none have ever attained such a level in history. Government incompetence has nothing to do with the issue of the death penalty and it's dishonest to pretend that it has. To say that the death penalty requires 'perfection' is also simply an OPINION and NOT a fact. Rubbish. 'Oops' is not a sufficient response to the execution of an innocent person. Until you can show a reliable method to bring someone back from the dead, even decades after their execution, it is unsafe to leave this in the hands of the state and all appeals to continue the practice are appeals for bloody revenge. I have no doubt at all that persons who were innocent have been executed. This has made every citizen a murderer, since it was done in their name. Dear Haddock, As the French would say, toujours la politesse! Leaving your rudeness aside, once again you seem incapable of telling the difference between a FACT and an OPINION. To say that the death penalty 'requires perfection' IS an OPINION OPINION OPINION and NOT a FACT. Again we hear the DISHONEST claim that the death penalty is about REVENGE when it is about JUSTICE for the VICTIMS of murder. On your own principles, until the murderer can come up with a way of bringing their victims back from the dead we're still going to find the death penalty an appropriate punishment. On a personal note, haddock, have you ever considered the possibility that you might be wrong? I agonise over life's complex moral dilemmas (of which the DP is one which is why I've changed my mind on the issue over the years.* I used to be an anti and then after the murder of my dear friend became a fry circus pro. I have now evolved to a wowie and I honestly feel that morally that is the most justifiable position. What I DO know is that I RESPECT people who honestly disagree with me and do NOT lie or distort facts or pretend that their OPINIONS are the same as FACTS. I always listen to everyone even if I disagree or even if I dislike them as people. Can you say the same? I feel one of my famous challenges coming over me - will you or any other anti on this board have the bottle to take me on? (They always do on CEASE and Crime Debate but then there's more open-minded posters on those boards.)
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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Oct 15, 2008 23:28:31 GMT -5
Fine, a few sceptical opinions in an article which clearly shows that the "liberal dogma" claiming that the "DP does not deter potential murderers" is losing ground! No, it isn't. Unless you have a solid proof that the removal of all penalty for homicide would make every one of us a killer you have no case. WOW Haddock! You posted a real whopper here! Sorry i didn't answer earlier! Of course people like you, me, pumpkinkie, BigLin and at least 95% of the population would not commit a murder even if there was a reward for this heinous act!
The worst of the worst of the murderers murder for the same reason that a drug abuser takes drugs! They are simply looking for a thrill, sensation or a kick! The fact that these murderous thrill seekers carried out their "hobby murders" much more often after the DP was outlawed in the US gives the deterrence argument more credibility..
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Post by happyhaddock on Oct 16, 2008 16:46:25 GMT -5
To say that the death penalty 'requires perfection' IS an OPINION OPINION OPINION and NOT a FACT. Tell that to the innocent men executed to satisfy the public desire for blood vengeance. Tell it to the victims of murder who saw the guilty walk free. The death penalty serves the sole purpose of satisfying the debased.
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Post by happyhaddock on Oct 16, 2008 16:47:29 GMT -5
The fact that these murderous thrill seekers carried out their "hobby murders" much more often after the DP was outlawed in the US gives the deterrence argument more credibility. Except that both are untrue.
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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Oct 17, 2008 9:15:54 GMT -5
The fact that these murderous thrill seekers carried out their "hobby murders" much more often after the DP was outlawed in the US gives the deterrence argument more credibility. Except that both are untrue. This and other charts show the statistics! ccadp.proboards40.com/index.cgi?board=debate&action=display&thread=6951&page=1 The Supreme Court reinstated the DP in the US after being confronted with such compelling evidence that capital punishment deters at least capital murder!
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Post by biglinmarshall on Oct 17, 2008 11:25:30 GMT -5
To say that the death penalty 'requires perfection' IS an OPINION OPINION OPINION and NOT a FACT. Tell that to the innocent men executed to satisfy the public desire for blood vengeance. Tell it to the victims of murder who saw the guilty walk free. The death penalty serves the sole purpose of satisfying the debased. I realise you're not used to dealing with moderate, articulate, intelligent and compassionate pros like me and Eva rather than the mindless morons who jack off at the prospect of execution but even so I did hope you might have SOME regard for truth. I believe that anyone executed under the law of parties is innocent but that is because an unjust and immoral law is on the statute books. Out of those who have been executed for murder since 1976 there has not been ONE incontrovertible case of innocence so you're telling porkies again. The victims of murder will see the murderer walk free whether or not you have the death penalty. That's to do with faults in the justice system and NOT the death penalty. The death penalty is appropriate PUNISHMENT for the worst murderers and is NOT debased. Mandatory life IS debased and inhumane. The funny thing is that I've found by bitter experience that it's HARDER to get ANTIS to side with me on my inmate support and prison reform work than it is PROS. Go figure, haddock.
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Post by happyhaddock on Oct 17, 2008 14:45:36 GMT -5
Out of those who have been executed for murder since 1976 there has not been ONE incontrovertible case of innocence so you're telling porkies again. How would you prove that? The extraordinary number of persons who escaped death despite the best efforts of the legal system to murder them lead inevitable to the conclusion that not all did. The 'system' will lazily concur in death sentences all the way down the line, but try to prove that one person was executed in error and it will rouse itself to a state of effort never seen on any other occasion. Policemen and prosecutors will lie, documents and evidence will be hidden or destroyed, legal filings will be rejected on the most specious grounds, no effort will be spared. Like a whore with a new paint job, the implication is that the truth is too ugly for the light of day. With that conclusion I agree but the truth must be shown.
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Post by happyhaddock on Oct 17, 2008 14:49:02 GMT -5
Except that both are untrue. This and other charts show the statistics! The Supreme Court reinstated the DP in the US after being confronted with such compelling evidence that capital punishment deters at least capital murder! I'm guessing mathematics was never your strong point! An almost identical chart proves that global warming is caused by the lack of pirates. As for the SCOTUS, the desperate desire of Americans to kill people, preferably minorities, was what drove the SCOTUS, not any amount of specious statistics. This was a political decision, not a moral nor legal one.
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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Oct 19, 2008 8:45:52 GMT -5
Except that both are untrue. This and other charts show the statistics! The Supreme Court reinstated the DP in the US after being confronted with such compelling evidence that capital punishment deters at least capital murder! I'm guessing mathematics was never your strong point! An almost identical chart proves that global warming is caused by the lack of pirates. As for the SCOTUS, the desperate desire of Americans to kill people, preferably minorities, was what drove the SCOTUS, not any amount of specious statistics. This was a political decision, not a moral nor legal one. Oh come on Haddock! If you want to ignore the homicide statistics in the DP free USA of the 70s, at least admit it's common sense to believe that at least some potential murderers would see the DP as a reason to reconsider their envisioned murder!
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Post by happyhaddock on Oct 19, 2008 11:19:17 GMT -5
Oh come on Haddock! If you want to ignore the homicide statistics in the DP free USA of the 70s, at least admit it's common sense to believe that at least some potential murderers would see the DP as a reason to reconsider their envisioned murder! You need to show good mathematics that clearly show that instead of the DP making people cover up their crimes more carefully, they actually avoid committing the crimes instead. However your problem here is confession: I see people confess to horrendous crimes they have committed without even getting something back like a promise of no DP. See this case (LINK) for a perfect example; the DP didn't prevent them committing the crime, didn't prevent them killing the children (Olivia, 6, and Nathan, 3), and didn't prevent them confessing without a promise of no DP. It actually may have led to the murder of the children.
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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Oct 24, 2008 10:19:27 GMT -5
Oh come on Haddock! If you want to ignore the homicide statistics in the DP free USA of the 70s, at least admit it's common sense to believe that at least some potential murderers would see the DP as a reason to reconsider their envisioned murder! You need to show good mathematics that clearly show that instead of the DP making people cover up their crimes more carefully, they actually avoid committing the crimes instead. However your problem here is confession: I see people confess to horrendous crimes they have committed without even getting something back like a promise of no DP. See this case (LINK) for a perfect example; the DP didn't prevent them committing the crime, didn't prevent them killing the children (Olivia, 6, and Nathan, 3), and didn't prevent them confessing without a promise of no DP. It actually may have led to the murder of the children. Dearest Haddock! The DP does not and can not PREVENT murder entirely and there will always be those, who seem unaware of the consequences as in your example-certainly you don't claim that this particular "offender profile" can be applied to all murderers!!
DETERRENCE is not PREVENTION! To claim that it is not possible to deter any potential capital murderers or "lesser murderers" is claiming that there is no diversity among the offender profiles and that all murderers are robotic killing machines, which only strengthens the other pro DP argument in this thread! The Incapaciation argument!
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Post by happyhaddock on Oct 25, 2008 11:57:40 GMT -5
DETERRENCE is not PREVENTION! Then your logic is that if we killed all Americans they would commit no murders? OK, but I oppose killing any of the native Americans - they've suffered enough since the invasion.
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