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Post by biglinmarshall on Oct 2, 2008 17:52:03 GMT -5
... Since the only people who are possibly going to be deterred will tend to be husbands/wives/significant others who on the whole should NOT be executed anyway. ... The deterrence argument is one that my fellow-pros overuse just as the endless cries of innocence get pretty tiresome. Where is the deterrence factor for those who kill their wives/children/others and then kill themselves? No one is saying everyone is innocent. However we only need one case of someone sentenced to death and later proven innocent and released to put the lie to any claims of competence by the 'justice system'. We have many more than one. The 'system' is hopelessly corrupt and incompetent. Death requires perfection and that cannot be obtained. To me, haddock, that's a post in favour of mass suicide or giving up on any attempt at any form of punishment. Life requires perfection and that can't be obtained either. Send for Jack Kevorkian!
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Post by pumpkinpie on Oct 2, 2008 20:33:54 GMT -5
Where is the deterrence factor for those who kill their wives/children/others and then kill themselves? No one is saying everyone is innocent. However we only need one case of someone sentenced to death and later proven innocent and released to put the lie to any claims of competence by the 'justice system'. We have many more than one. The 'system' is hopelessly corrupt and incompetent. Death requires perfection and that cannot be obtained. To me, haddock, that's a post in favour of mass suicide or giving up on any attempt at any form of punishment. Life requires perfection and that can't be obtained either. Send for Jack Kevorkian! It's not a post in favor of mass suicide only because it states a fact. That there are people who kill others/their familys, then themselves. We all know it sadly and discustingly happens. We all wish it didn't because the one who commits suicide ends up avoiding their punishment in this world. Sort of like one of the reasons the death penalty is pointless. Once they are dead, punishment is then avoided. I'd rather see them sit in prison longer, personally.
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Post by happyhaddock on Oct 2, 2008 20:35:31 GMT -5
Where is the deterrence factor for those who kill their wives/children/others and then kill themselves? No one is saying everyone is innocent. However we only need one case of someone sentenced to death and later proven innocent and released to put the lie to any claims of competence by the 'justice system'. We have many more than one. The 'system' is hopelessly corrupt and incompetent. Death requires perfection and that cannot be obtained. To me, haddock, that's a post in favour of mass suicide or giving up on any attempt at any form of punishment. Life requires perfection and that can't be obtained either. Send for Jack Kevorkian! I believe in the bad neighbor policy - If no one wants the convicted person to live next to them then they need to be separated from society BUT that doesn't mean you are allowed to be brutal or apply cruel or unusual punishments to them.
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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Oct 3, 2008 12:42:39 GMT -5
Without a link this is nonsense and no amount of giant, bold, vile colored fonts makes up for that lack. I did post the link to this analysis of prison escape plans at prodp on one of the older deterrence threads on the prodp forum! It does correspond to "common sense" that inmates would be less likely to murder during escape attempts if the DP is the punishment for such murders as it is in Texas! In non-DP states it's a standing joke among inmates to get into the Guiness book of records for receiving the most consecutive life sentences by murdering again. The element of human error is inescapable in the security of a prison so it's just unrealistic to keep saying "tighten security more":
au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080612060712AAjinfu QUOTE: The DP provides a deterrent for prisoners already serving a life sentence. What about people already sentenced to life in prison. What's to stop them from murdering people constantly while in prison? What are they going to do--extend his sentence? Sure, they can take away some prison privileges, but is this enough of a deterrent to stop the killing? What about a person sentenced to life who happens to escape? What's to stop him from killing anyone who might try to bring him in or curb his crime spree?
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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Oct 3, 2008 13:43:04 GMT -5
This article supports primarily the Incapaciation Argument for CP! In plain text those who insist that the worst of the murderers get prison instead of the DP are condemning other inmates, prison guards, etc. TO DEATH!!!.. because the inescapable element of human error simply makes it impossible to incarcerate these murderers safetly! The phrase just; "Just tighten prison security more" is an old worn out record that simply can't stop all murderers, who are determined to murder again!! senorlechero.blogspot.com/2005/05/best-argument-for-death-penalty.html! QUOTE: The best argument for the Death Penalty Cathy Young writes in The Boston Globe about retribution (revenge actually) as the only legitimate reason for the death penalty. She claims that unless death penalty proponents admit that retrubution is their real motive their "arguments fall flat". I get so tired of the arguments anti-death penalty people use to keep murderers alive. One of their favorites (used in a rather lame way by Ms. Young) is to claim that "life in a prison cell" is just as bad (Ms Young says "6' by 6' cell). Can anyone name a state where convicted murderers stay in a 6' by 6' cell? Can anyone name a state where they are in solitary confinement (excepting death row)? No!! Another of their arguments is to claim that "since there is always the 'chance' that an innocent person will be executed, the 'state' has no right to authorize 'murder' in my name". Only the worst of the worst murderers are sentenced to death, and then only after years of appeals are they executed, and guess what...............the state isn't doing the authorizing of execution, a jury of 12 is (that jury represents we the people, not the state) There is one argument for the death penalty that cannot be refuted by the anti crowd, and that is this..........It is immoral and uncivil to make people (prisoners, guards, doctors, lawyers etc.) be in close contact with a known cold blooded murderer. No one should have to risk their lives being in the same cellblock with a person who enjoys killing other people. Nor should anyone have to risk being murdered while providing food, care, clothing, or anything else to one. It is far more caring to all humanity to kill a murderer than to give him the chance to murder again.
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Post by pumpkinpie on Oct 3, 2008 14:55:24 GMT -5
One of those arguments you posted is in fact the truth. Unfortunately, the worst of the worst aren't the ones who get the death penalty. The green river killer was spared it, and a recent serial killer in Louisiana was sentenced to life. I posted an article about that in this section. The death penalty isn't even applied to the worst of the worst, it's applied to guys who are convicted on circumstantial evidence sometimes. "He probably started the fire that killed his family." "He most likely killed his wife, but we've got no dna proof." What if they were innocent. These cases are out there and there real. It's ignorant to ignore them. A maybe or a probably isn't good enough when it comes to somebody's life.
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Post by happyhaddock on Oct 4, 2008 1:07:20 GMT -5
This article supports primarily the Incapaciation Argument for CP! ... All I see is that you want to kill people. Until you (1), kill every murderer and (2), have a system so certain it never makes mistakes, can never be corrupted and is never subject to outside pressure the DP will continue to be applied in an arbitrary fashion. (1) is currently impossible. (2) will always be impossible. Example: Dr. Crippen was tried for the murder of his wife based on remains found in his cellar. He was hung for this crime. A recent test on the remains has shown that they are from a man, not a woman; and the best analysis of the evidence is that the police planted it. They also suppressed a letter, probably written by his wife from America, in which she says she will not return to testify for him. Humans are not perfect enough for a final punishment. Revenge and blood lust are not good reasons for this barbarism.
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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Oct 4, 2008 15:40:11 GMT -5
This article supports primarily the Incapaciation Argument for CP! ... All I see is that you want to kill people. Until you (1), kill every murderer and (2), have a system so certain it never makes mistakes, can never be corrupted and is never subject to outside pressure the DP will continue to be applied in an arbitrary fashion. (1) is currently impossible. (2) will always be impossible. Example: Dr. Crippen was tried for the murder of his wife based on remains found in his cellar. He was hung for this crime. A recent test on the remains has shown that they are from a man, not a woman; and the best analysis of the evidence is that the police planted it. They also suppressed a letter, probably written by his wife from America, in which she says she will not return to testify for him. Humans are not perfect enough for a final punishment. Revenge and blood lust are not good reasons for this barbarism. Anyone who enjoys seeing that people are put to death is at best mentally imbalanced! I find it disgusting that executions are sometimes celebrated!
On the sinking Titanic decisions were made as to who would live and who would die! Mistakes and flaws were and are sadly inevitable! If on the Titanic the people in charge felt no one had to right to decide who lived and who died the terrified passengers would have stormed the life boats overfilling them and everyone would have died! This liberal doctrine that no one has the right to decide over life and death costs lives in other situations too!
It's my firm conviction that the biggest delusion that anti-DP activists suffer from is the belief that they are saving lives! True they may succeed in saving the life of a DR inmate, but if that former DR inmate murders again the anti-DP movement takes the blame! I know in your heart you mean well, but you are wrong!
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Post by pumpkinpie on Oct 4, 2008 21:13:12 GMT -5
All I see is that you want to kill people. Until you (1), kill every murderer and (2), have a system so certain it never makes mistakes, can never be corrupted and is never subject to outside pressure the DP will continue to be applied in an arbitrary fashion. (1) is currently impossible. (2) will always be impossible. Example: Dr. Crippen was tried for the murder of his wife based on remains found in his cellar. He was hung for this crime. A recent test on the remains has shown that they are from a man, not a woman; and the best analysis of the evidence is that the police planted it. They also suppressed a letter, probably written by his wife from America, in which she says she will not return to testify for him. Humans are not perfect enough for a final punishment. Revenge and blood lust are not good reasons for this barbarism. Anyone who enjoys seeing that people are put to death is at best mentally imbalanced! I find it disgusting that executions are sometimes celebrated!
On the sinking Titanic decisions were made as to who would live and who would die! Mistakes and flaws were and are sadly inevitable! If on the Titanic the people in charge felt no one had to right to decide who lived and who died the terrified passengers would have stormed the life boats overfilling them and everyone would have died! This liberal doctrine that no one has the right to decide over life and death costs lives in other situations too!
It's my firm conviction that the biggest delusion that anti-DP activists suffer from is the belief that they are saving lives! True they may succeed in saving the life of a DR inmate, but if that former DR inmate murders again the anti-DP movement takes the blame! I know in your heart you mean well, but you are wrong!Hi Eva, If a death row inmate is granted clemency, so his life is spared, how is he able to kill again when he's still locked up in prison serving a life term? How is he free to kill again? He's only free to kill again if he was proved innnocent, released, then of cource that would mean he never killed in the first place. A life is worth trying to save for me, even if that life is a condemed person behind bars. That doesn't mean I believe he should be released into society to kill again!
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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Oct 5, 2008 1:39:03 GMT -5
Anyone who enjoys seeing that people are put to death is at best mentally imbalanced! I find it disgusting that executions are sometimes celebrated!
On the sinking Titanic decisions were made as to who would live and who would die! Mistakes and flaws were and are sadly inevitable! If on the Titanic the people in charge felt no one had to right to decide who lived and who died the terrified passengers would have stormed the life boats overfilling them and everyone would have died! This liberal doctrine that no one has the right to decide over life and death costs lives in other situations too!
It's my firm conviction that the biggest delusion that anti-DP activists suffer from is the belief that they are saving lives! True they may succeed in saving the life of a DR inmate, but if that former DR inmate murders again the anti-DP movement takes the blame! I know in your heart you mean well, but you are wrong! Hi Eva, If a death row inmate is granted clemency, so his life is spared, how is he able to kill again when he's still locked up in prison serving a life term? How is he free to kill again? He's only free to kill again if he was proved innnocent, released, then of cource that would mean he never killed in the first place. A life is worth trying to save for me, even if that life is a condemed person behind bars. That doesn't mean I believe he should be released into society to kill again! Hi Pumpkinpie Sweetie! First off there are cases of DR inmates, who received clemency and were later released on parole only to murder again! The McDuff case in Texas is especially notorious! The Massey case which i posted there and others also show that clemency can lead to release and more murders.. Secondly i'll share a link to a memorial site for murdered prison guards later! True i don't contend that these correctional officers were all murdered by DR inmates, who received clemency! I'll find the link on the prison guard site, but this thread which i authored in my first cyber life on this forum recounts how DR inmates were able to murder again! ccadp.proboards40.com/index.cgi?board=debate&action=display&thread=6879
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Post by happyhaddock on Oct 5, 2008 11:46:44 GMT -5
What about prisoners who aren't on death row but who murder guards or others anyway? Your arguments are specious.
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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Oct 6, 2008 16:19:43 GMT -5
What about prisoners who aren't on death row but who murder guards or others anyway? Your arguments are specious. There's a difference between taking neccesary and unneccesary risks! A prison guard or anyone else for that matter should not have to be endangered by "capital murderers", who have a history of evil!
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Post by happyhaddock on Oct 6, 2008 19:46:46 GMT -5
What about prisoners who aren't on death row but who murder guards or others anyway? Your arguments are specious. There's a difference between taking neccesary and unneccesary risks! A prison guard or anyone else for that matter should not have to be endangered by "capital murderers", who have a history of evil! WRONG! Most murderers DON'T have a "history of evil" - they have killed once under particular circumstances. Many murderers will never kill again if released. Many other violent criminals are always dangerous. It takes little to set them off as you can see if you look at gang fight video from various prisons. These violent, often tattooed men who spend their time in building muscles are a real threat to guards. You simply want to kill people. This is not a noble cause.
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Post by pumpkinpie on Oct 7, 2008 16:13:08 GMT -5
What about prisoners who aren't on death row but who murder guards or others anyway? Your arguments are specious. There's a difference between taking neccesary and unneccesary risks! A prison guard or anyone else for that matter should not have to be endangered by "capital murderers", who have a history of evil! WRONG! Most murderers DON'T have a "history of evil" - they have killed once under particular circumstances. Many murderers will never kill again if released. Many other violent criminals are always dangerous. It takes little to set them off as you can see if you look at gang fight video from various prisons. These violent, often tattooed men who spend their time in building muscles are a real threat to guards. You simply want to kill people. This is not a noble cause. I don't think Eva actually wants to kill people. Her view is just a little different than ours. She's a victim's rights advocate, and she puts up beautiful memorial sites for the victims. She also has threads on the crime debate board about how if there's any chance in a million that someone is innocent they should never receive the d.p. She does stand up for the innocent. I've gotten to know her and she's actually the nicest person I've ever met online.
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Post by happyhaddock on Oct 7, 2008 20:30:19 GMT -5
She will allow some killing by the state. I want none except for terrorists and war criminals.
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