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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Sept 25, 2008 12:20:40 GMT -5
Anyone who claims that the possibility of the death penalty could never deter a potential murderer from carrying out his/her murderous plan are in fact saying something truly horrible about murderers! They are claiming that murderers, unlike any other group of criminals or non-criminals are by nature completely robotic and very different from the rest of humanity! Some pros will agree with antis that murderers can't be deterred and therefore must be executed because they are simply "killing machines" that will likely murder again!
Often the "Deterrence Argument" for CP is confused with the "Incapaciation Argument"! The fact is if anyone claims that murderers can't be deterred from committing murder they are only giving the "Incapaciation Argument" in support of the DP more power!
Antis are truly between a rock and a hard place when facing these 2 pro-DP arguments! If i were an anti i would take a "hit" here and withdraw to the "Brutalisation Argument" against the DP!
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Post by happyhaddock on Sept 25, 2008 19:45:06 GMT -5
Anyone who claims that the possibility of the death penalty could never deter a potential murderer from carrying out his/her murderous plan are in fact saying something truly horrible about murderers! They are claiming that murderers, unlike any other group of criminals or non-criminals are by nature completely robotic and very different from the rest of humanity! Some pros will agree with antis that murderers can't be deterred and therefore must be executed because they are simply "killing machines" that will likely murder again! Often the "Deterrence Argument" for CP is confused with the "Incapaciation Argument"! The fact is if anyone claims that murderers can't be deterred from committing murder they are only giving the "Incapaciation Argument" in support of the DP more power! Antis are truly between a rock and a hard place when facing these 2 pro-DP arguments! If i were an anti i would take a "hit" here and withdraw to the "Brutalisation Argument" against the DP! No amount of annoying color or size selections make up for the bankruptcy of your argument. Those who are executed certainly do not kill again. This applies whether or not they have ever killed before. By your logic we should all kill each other until no one is left and then we will have eliminated murder. We will also eliminate all other crime. I doubt this will ever be implemented. I also believe other "Final Solutions" have been rejected as will be this one. |
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Post by mcdude on Sept 28, 2008 12:47:50 GMT -5
Anyone who claims that the possibility of the death penalty could never deter a potential murderer from carrying out his/her murderous plan are in fact saying something truly horrible about murderers! They are claiming that murderers, unlike any other group of criminals or non-criminals are by nature completely robotic and very different from the rest of humanity! Some pros will agree with antis that murderers can't be deterred and therefore must be executed because they are simply "killing machines" that will likely murder again! Often the "Deterrence Argument" for CP is confused with the "Incapaciation Argument"! The fact is if anyone claims that murderers can't be deterred from committing murder they are only giving the "Incapaciation Argument" in support of the DP more power! Antis are truly between a rock and a hard place when facing these 2 pro-DP arguments! If i were an anti i would take a "hit" here and withdraw to the "Brutalisation Argument" against the DP! Your bizarre use of color does nothing to make your argument anymore valid. The fundamental flaw in your argument is that you presume all murders are committed by people with clear, rational intent. They are not! A multitude of factors influence a murder and if you really think a murderer thinks 'Oh, its OK to murder in this state because I'll only get LOP, thank goodness' then you must be taking something hallucinogenic, something also suggested by your style of writing and your use of graphics. If, for once, you can answer a question directly I would, for once, be interested in your response. If your argument about the DP being a deterrent holds up, why do people continue to murder in Texas? Please be direct in your response. Do not tell me what I'm thinking, post a film picture or a fairy, just tell me why murder continues. |
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Post by biglinmarshall on Sept 29, 2008 9:38:54 GMT -5
Ah, Mcdude, you'll get used to Eva's wonderful artistic skills in time!
I actually agree with pretty much everything you said otherwise.
I've never argued in favour of the death penalty on the basis of deterrence because it would obviously NOT deter a suicide bomber, most terrorists, most psycho killers, or Mafia hitmen.
Since the only people who are possibly going to be deterred will tend to be husbands/wives/significant others who on the whole should NOT be executed anyway.
I'm a wowie so I don't want to execute all murderers because all murders are different.
The deterrence argument is one that my fellow-pros overuse just as the endless cries of innocence get pretty tiresome.
I've actually had online dealings with Debra Milke's mother and Christa Pike's as well and they are obviously in complete denial when they can't accept that their daughters really ARE vicious murdering thugs.
Antis, don't keep trying to make out everyone is innocent; pros, don't keep pushing deterrence because that won't fly either.
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Post by pumpkinpie on Sept 29, 2008 11:07:07 GMT -5
Ah, Mcdude, you'll get used to Eva's wonderful artistic skills in time! I actually agree with pretty much everything you said otherwise. I've never argued in favour of the death penalty on the basis of deterrence because it would obviously NOT deter a suicide bomber, most terrorists, most psycho killers, or Mafia hitmen. Since the only people who are possibly going to be deterred will tend to be husbands/wives/significant others who on the whole should NOT be executed anyway. I'm a wowie so I don't want to execute all murderers because all murders are different. The deterrence argument is one that my fellow-pros overuse just as the endless cries of innocence get pretty tiresome. I've actually had online dealings with Debra Milke's mother and Christa Pike's as well and they are obviously in complete denial when they can't accept that their daughters really ARE vicious murdering thugs. Antis, don't keep trying to make out everyone is innocent; pros, don't keep pushing deterrence because that won't fly either. Yes, Eva just does that. She likes to be creative and fun. I don't see a problem with that. Why do you think husbands and wifes would be most deterred? I don't think it's the death penalty that would stop a husband from killing his wife. As far as a wife goes- hey, Mary Winkler got away with it! No deterrence factor there. I do think that prison would be a deterrence for some, but not the death penalty. Who would care once caught anyway, whether the sentence is life or death. Most would rather be sentenced to death so they could be kept away from the rest of the prison population. |
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Post by happyhaddock on Sept 29, 2008 11:45:37 GMT -5
... Since the only people who are possibly going to be deterred will tend to be husbands/wives/significant others who on the whole should NOT be executed anyway. ... The deterrence argument is one that my fellow-pros overuse just as the endless cries of innocence get pretty tiresome. Where is the deterrence factor for those who kill their wives/children/others and then kill themselves? No one is saying everyone is innocent. However we only need one case of someone sentenced to death and later proven innocent and released to put the lie to any claims of competence by the 'justice system'. We have many more than one. The 'system' is hopelessly corrupt and incompetent. Death requires perfection and that cannot be obtained. |
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Post by mcdude on Sept 29, 2008 12:45:52 GMT -5
Hi Linda,
Very, very true. This is the problem with so many rabid pros, if they are going to state admiration for the DP, at least be honest as to why they want it.
Bingo!
Right again, a 'one size fits all' approach is madness
Agreed again Linda!
We have just had our first meeting of minds ;D
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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Sept 29, 2008 19:45:28 GMT -5
Yes, Eva just does that. She likes to be creative and fun. I don't see a problem with that. Why do you think husbands and wifes would be most deterred? I don't think it's the death penalty that would stop a husband from killing his wife. As far as a wife goes- hey, Mary Winkler got away with it! No deterrence factor there. I do think that prison would be a deterrence for some, but not the death penalty. Who would care once caught anyway, whether the sentence is life or death. Most would rather be sentenced to death so they could be kept away from the rest of the prison population. I love you both, but i am amazed at the resistance to the common sense argument that the DP is a deterrent for the majority of potential capital murderers! We can't ever put up a list of "planned murders that were never carried out because of the fear of the consequences"! BUT!! How can anyone claim that no one EVER EVER EVER refrained from an envisioned murder because of the possibility of the DP! If you're claiming this than you're claiming that all potential murderers are simply robots, unimpressed by the potential dangers of their actions! And YES some pros will agree here and say murderers have to be executed because they can't be deterred from murdering! If you can't imagine the DP deterring potential murderers WHY is it so easy to understand that the nazis misused the DP to deter political resistance in the 3rd Reich! Hitler would have been easily overthrown if anti-nazis like Sophie Scholl and her brother Hans were only put in prison! |
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Post by happyhaddock on Sept 29, 2008 19:50:38 GMT -5
If you can't imagine the DP deterring potential murderers WHY is it so easy to understand that the nazis misused the DP to deter political resistance in the 3rd Reich! Hitler would have been easily overthrown if anti-nazis like Sophie Scholl and her brother Hans were only put in prison! You are confusing chalk with cheese. Were Sophie Scholl and her brother Hans murderers? No, the actual murderers were the Nazis who were not deterred. The death penalty doesn't deter, it persuades people to try to evade the consequences. If the death penalty could deter people, the USA would be the safest country on earth and Texas and Virginia the safest states in it. |
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Post by sweethang223344 on Sept 29, 2008 20:42:24 GMT -5
Happy please explain. As you can see I am from Virginia.
Thanks in advance
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Post by happyhaddock on Sept 30, 2008 2:16:42 GMT -5
Happy please explain. As you can see I am from Virginia. Thanks in advance  Explain what? "Virginia is for Lovers" -- of executions! |
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Post by mcdude on Oct 1, 2008 17:01:17 GMT -5
Eva,
More assertion, still no fact. Show me evidence that the DP deters potential murder and I will convert to being a pro. I realize that you can't produce a list of murders that were deterred but you could show us how states with the DP have a lower murder rate. You could show us that countries without the DP have a higher on than those with. Until you do, I will be unable to understand why you are so over confident that your position is one of certainty. All I see so far is your gut feelings, no statistical proof.
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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Oct 2, 2008 0:15:06 GMT -5
Eva, More assertion, still no fact. Show me evidence that the DP deters potential murder and I will convert to being a pro. I realize that you can't produce a list of murders that were deterred but you could show us how states with the DP have a lower murder rate. You could show us that countries without the DP have a higher on than those with. Until you do, I will be unable to understand why you are so over confident that your position is one of certainty. All I see so far is your gut feelings, no statistical proof. Dearest McDude! True it's probably not possible to prove deterrence with the same scientific accuracy that we can prove that water freezes at the same temperature under normal circumstances! I think all of us agree that the ecomony plays a role too in the increases and decreases of homicides! This is also a plausible assumption that is difficult to prove! Probably the clearest study about the deterring effect of the DP under a controled environment was the following.. Unfortunately i lost the link! There was a study on prison escape plans and attempts in DP states as opposed to escape plans and attempts from prisons in anti-dp states, where the DP was outlawed! The study concluded that inmates in anti-DP states,with no DP to fear would be much more likely to murder in general than in the pro DP states during an escape attempt!! |
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Post by happyhaddock on Oct 2, 2008 10:23:29 GMT -5
Without a link this is nonsense and no amount of giant, bold, vile colored fonts makes up for that lack.
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Post by mcdude on Oct 2, 2008 12:12:31 GMT -5
Eva, More assertion, still no fact. Show me evidence that the DP deters potential murder and I will convert to being a pro. I realize that you can't produce a list of murders that were deterred but you could show us how states with the DP have a lower murder rate. You could show us that countries without the DP have a higher on than those with. Until you do, I will be unable to understand why you are so over confident that your position is one of certainty. All I see so far is your gut feelings, no statistical proof. Dearest McDude! True it's probably not possible to prove deterrence with the same scientific accuracy that we can prove that water freezes at the same temperature under normal circumstances! I think all of us agree that the ecomony plays a role too in the increases and decreases of homicides! This is also a plausible assumption that is difficult to prove! Probably the clearest study about the deterring effect of the DP under a controled environment was the following.. Unfortunately i lost the link! There was a study on prison escape plans and attempts in DP states as opposed to escape plans and attempts from prisons in anti-dp states, where the DP was outlawed! The study concluded that inmates in anti-DP states,with no DP to fear would be much more likely to murder in general than in the pro DP states during an escape attempt!!Actually, periods of economic depression and homicide statistics are pretty easy to compare. I agree with you that certainly these things have an impact. I would like to read the article that you speak of and study their methodology. Do you have a link? I would be very shocked to discover that an inmate who is already senteced to the DP would find the DP a deterrent. In any case, this study is hardlyproof of your poition as escape attempts from prison account for a tny pecentage of murders. It is domestic, drug related, sex related and pleasure killings that we need hard data on. |
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Explain what?