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Post by erick on Jan 19, 2006 14:36:22 GMT -5
Hello! I have heard some antis claim that the DP is murder. I am curious how you reconcile that with the fact that most American's are pro? Are most Amercans just a bunch of serial killers hiding under the guise of justice? If so, what does that say about your friends, family members, and colleagues who support the DP? I know that you think that the DP is an immoral practice, but is it really the equivalent of murder?
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Post by Elaine on Jan 19, 2006 14:51:29 GMT -5
I know a lot of people around here are just pro because they grew up to be pro... for generations everyone in their family has always been pro... they say they're pro but have never actually given it any thought of their own. I don't think they're anything except followers. Always wondering who the last one in their family was to actually make the choice to be pro. That's also why I don't care much about statistics. A lot of the people who say they are pro actually have a whole lot of ifs and buts if you get them to actually think about it.
And that's from looking around and asking and talking about it with people that I know, not just some general statement.
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Post by paleone on Jan 19, 2006 15:04:49 GMT -5
considering that the death certificate reads homicide which is defined as:
1 : a person who kills another
2 : the killing of one human being by another
i feel it is murder. If you hear a police officer referring to a murder, they call it homicide...murder and homicide go hand in hand.
some pros i think are pros without fully understanding the lives that are in pain and ruins and the torture and violation of rights these men feel, so on and so forth..some i think are just venemous people who are just as cold hearted as the murderers they slander..i think it's pretty SICK to wish torture and suffering upon anyone...to hear some of the horrid things come from their mouths it makes me feel very sorry for them for harboring such hatred in their hearts...
i think when people learn to value ALL life they will realize how much more joy they can have in their lives...and to actually find beauty in all people is something that really helps people live a fulfilled life..
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Post by paleone on Jan 19, 2006 15:07:15 GMT -5
in fact, i'd like to quote my loved one on death row, i think he said it perfectly:
My second goal in this is to somehow foster the attitude throughout the world that we on death row are fellow human beings. I will try my best to remove the misconceptions generally held that we are monsters, cold-blooded, un-feeling, unthinkably evil. Most people who are pro-death penalty and those working with the machine feel this way. They have to. If they dont hate us enough, how can they kill us? And how else can one learn to hate a person, without first removing their humanity?
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Post by sclcookie on Jan 20, 2006 2:52:01 GMT -5
Erick, it isn't right for me to kill someone. It isn't right for you to kill someone. Just because it is "lawful" for the states to kill someone, no matter what the circumstances are, doesn't make it right, therefore, lawful or not, it's murder.
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Post by janet on Jan 20, 2006 11:03:20 GMT -5
Yes, the death penalty really is murder. Killing another human being is wrong. Premeditated killing by the state is wrong. Execution requires a degree of pre-meditation, procedural stages, and a procribed ritual of killing. These, to me, cause it to be even more heinous.
No matter now shocking the manner in which a murder is committed, it never, absolutely never should result in the state engaging in the killing of another.
I agree with Paleone. Supporters of the death penalty have likely become so for the same reasons generation after generation vote Republican or Democrat. There is little thought or examination of the issues. It is simply what one automatically does.
When one looks toward Europe, there is a diversity, an evolution of standards of decency not currently seen in the United States.
All killing is deplorable, however, to kill to gain revenge, under the guise of deterrence, is completely repugnant to any who who dare call themselves human.
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Post by erick on Jan 20, 2006 13:43:52 GMT -5
Erick, it isn't right for me to kill someone. It isn't right for you to kill someone. Just because it is "lawful" for the states to kill someone, no matter what the circumstances are, doesn't make it right, therefore, lawful or not, it's murder. Hi Suzanna! That was not really my primary question, although it was part of it. I am well aware that you believe that the DP is murder and why you think that. My main question is: If the DP is the moral equivalent to murder, where does that leave the majority of Americans (such as your father) who support it? Does that make murderers of most of the population? |
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Post by Elaine on Jan 20, 2006 17:10:41 GMT -5
Erick, I 'd like to answer with a counter-question: who started the war on/in Iraq? The first soldier to get there or the man in who's name he was sent there?
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Post by erick on Jan 20, 2006 17:20:41 GMT -5
Erick, I 'd like to answer with a counter-question: who started the war on/in Iraq? The first soldier to get there or the man in who's name he was sent there? Well, I could be a smarta$$ and say Saddam, but I am not a supporter of the war, anyway. Hence, I will say it was the American politicians who sent them there who started the war. |
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Post by skyloom on Jan 20, 2006 18:20:26 GMT -5
Hello! I have heard some antis claim that the DP is murder. I am curious how you reconcile that with the fact that most American's are pro? Sometimes the majority is wrong. Nah... more like cowboy wannabees. I don't think any of my family or friends are pro-murder... at least I hope not. The "equivalent of" murder? It is murder, Erick. I see so many people deciding their stand on the basis of the victim's "innocence." So, suppose a mafia crime boss is gunned down by a rival crime boss. Neither crime boss is "innocent"... the murderer or the murderee. See, it's still murder when someone's life is deliberately ended by someone else, and it doesn't matter a bit whether the one who dies is a saint or an esso-bee, and it doesn't matter who does the killing. It is murder. |
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Post by judywaits4u on Jan 21, 2006 3:45:26 GMT -5
Erick, I 'd like to answer with a counter-question: who started the war on/in Iraq? The first soldier to get there or the man in who's name he was sent there? Well, I could be a smarta$$ and say Saddam, but I am not a supporter of the war, anyway. Hence, I will say it was the American politicians who sent them there who started the war. Sodom Insane did not start the war it was that mass murder GWB. That is true whether or not you want to see yourself as a smart a@se. Love and hugs, Judy |
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Post by skyloom on Jan 21, 2006 12:31:17 GMT -5
My main question is: If the DP is the moral equivalent to murder, where does that leave the majority of Americans (such as your father) who support it? Does that make murderers of most of the population? Erick, after the Second World War at the Nuremberg Trials there was a man named Julius Streicher. He published a newspaper and in that newspaper he wrote editorials that said terrible things against the Jewish People. Although he never killed anyone, far as anyone knows, and although he was not part of the SS, he was hanged right along with the rest of the war criminals. He was judged as responsible as the rest for the Holocaust. There are, in any situation of justice denied, those who are the actors and those who are the bystanders, who say and do nothing to oppose injustice. Without the tacit cooperation of the bystanders, who are far more numerous, the actors could not do what they do. Without the little Julius Streichers over on the Crazy Pros board and others like them, the death penalty could not happen. Of course there are degrees of culpability, but there is culpability... not ony with regard to the death penalty, but also with regard to any injustice. If you sincerely feel that you can't support ending the death penalty, then it's clearly not "your thing." I'm sure, though, that there are causes you can support... helping the homeless or supporting AIDS research or whatever. Rather than hassling anti folks, how about spending some time working for a cause that is close to your heart? |
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Post by Elaine on Jan 21, 2006 12:53:44 GMT -5
What skyloom said is the point I was going to get at, but worded much better than I had in mind... so I'm going to just sit here and nod 'yep...yep'.  |
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Post by erick on Jan 21, 2006 13:55:24 GMT -5
Well, I could be a smarta$$ and say Saddam, but I am not a supporter of the war, anyway. Hence, I will say it was the American politicians who sent them there who started the war. Sodom Insane did not start the war it was that mass murder GWB. That is true whether or not you want to see yourself as a smart a@se. Love and hugs, Judy Umm, I just agreed that Bush started the war in my post  |
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Post by erick on Jan 21, 2006 14:00:25 GMT -5
My main question is: If the DP is the moral equivalent to murder, where does that leave the majority of Americans (such as your father) who support it? Does that make murderers of most of the population? Erick, after the Second World War at the Nuremberg Trials there was a man named Julius Streicher. He published a newspaper and in that newspaper he wrote editorials that said terrible things against the Jewish People. Although he never killed anyone, far as anyone knows, and although he was not part of the SS, he was hanged right along with the rest of the war criminals. He was judged as responsible as the rest for the Holocaust. There are, in any situation of justice denied, those who are the actors and those who are the bystanders, who say and do nothing to oppose injustice. Without the tacit cooperation of the bystanders, who are far more numerous, the actors could not do what they do. Without the little Julius Streichers over on the Crazy Pros board and others like them, the death penalty could not happen. Of course there are degrees of culpability, but there is culpability... not ony with regard to the death penalty, but also with regard to any injustice. If you sincerely feel that you can't support ending the death penalty, then it's clearly not "your thing." I'm sure, though, that there are causes you can support... helping the homeless or supporting AIDS research or whatever. Rather than hassling anti folks, how about spending some time working for a cause that is close to your heart? OK, that is not a bad post at all. I want to comment on the hassling anti part though. Skyloom, you post on the pro board constantly, so you really don't have a leg to stand on on this point. Besides, I don't want you to leave the pro site. I do enjoy the conversations. If you call that hassling, well... |
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