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Post by paleone on Aug 26, 2005 7:56:46 GMT -5
As a believer in Christ, I SO wish He spoke in terms that were easy to interpret rather than the parables. These things are the cause for much confusion and I, for one thank Paleone for helping me understand them! Miles aww you're welcome miles :-) Yeah when i am passionate about something i educate myself on it. And I have a hebrew/greek "key word" bible which gives accurate descriptions on what words meant. it also gives historical backrounds like for what the culture was like and so on...it also has the commentaries that explain things.. as far as parables...the swine thing for example that's pretty simple, but people misquote it...it isn't that Jesus didn't make sense..in fact He made perfect sense...people were not understanding without a visual...ok...if someone just said a fact that you didn't understand, wouldn't it be easier if they gave an example to back it up? that's what the parables were... i mean heck, Jesus stopped a woman from being stoned (which at the time was the laws of the land)..but people still want to twist that around, it can't be explained any more bluntly, "he who is without sin cast the first stone"...bottom line.. |
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Post by paleone on Aug 26, 2005 7:58:46 GMT -5
oops what i was actually also trying to say was that if i am passionate in things, i do educate myself..i am very militant in my walk with God, therefore i study the Word to the abilities i have and make sure i know what i talk about when i debate...same with the DP...i hate debating things with people who do not know what htey are talking about..responding wtih stuff like "just because"...that's why i make it a point to know the topic at hand
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Post by spearmint on Aug 28, 2005 16:36:47 GMT -5
Paleone wrote:
I am a victim of a loved one being murdered. I am also a victim of assault. So you know, i have both sides of the pendelum. You know nothing of me. and you are by your actions no different than a pharisee.
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So i guess i can quote the passage 'judge not lest ye be judged'. Or i'll turn the other cheek if you have more insults. I believe one reason why we're all sinners is that it is not humanely possible to follow the example of the Lamb of God and at the same time be the salt of the earth and deter the evildoers from murdering more innocent people like Amy Sue Seitz.
It amazes me how you antis believe that all murderers and potential murderers are like robots who are not deterred or impressed by the existence of the death penalty. I grew up in MN and we've had quite a number of cruel and heinous murderers by sex offenders fresh out of prison-apparently the "loving, liberal, humane gesture" of abolishing the DP as MN has doesn't impress them and murder was their reply!
In Loving Memory of Dru Sjodin!
In Loving Memory of Katie Poirier!
In Loving Memory of Kari Koskinen!
In Loving Memory of Melissa Johnson!
In Loving Memory of Jolene Stuedemann!
In Loving Memory of Carrie Coonrod!
In Loving Memory of Mary Foley!
In Loving Memory of Jamie Cooksey!
Just a few of Minnesota's victims and all the perpetrators are alive and well in a comfortable couch potatoe paradise of a prison-and and this certainly doesn't send a deterring message to others considering such a horrible rape murder.
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Post by sclcookie on Aug 28, 2005 17:01:07 GMT -5
Prison paradise? hmmmmm, maybe minnesots, but Texas is far from paradise.
The man who murdered my boyfriend is serving a life sentence in TDCJ. He will be suffering in prison for the rest of his natural life.
Also, they let sex offenders out of prison too soon in all states.....even here in Texas, the express lane of the death penalty.
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Post by paleone on Aug 28, 2005 20:34:38 GMT -5
i am not debating any further...i have learned that it's quite silly to try to speak the truth of God to people who misquote or misinterpret....it's quite easy on the internet to fake what people really are...all these debates are is just a distraction from the real task at hand...i could sit here obsessed at my computer at setting "miss spearmint" right...who for all i know is an athiest who knows the token things to misquote...i don't need to prove anything to anyone...i am in a fight for something i am quite passionate about and i know the rewards that God has given so far and i know the blessings and the lives i am seeing be blessed....Robert Shields went out in peace...Richard Cartwright went out in peace, they knew God and knew their destination.... If you or anyone truly is a real christian you'd take scripture to heart...and stop trying to slander people with the word of God...the Word of God is not to be used for destruction...and i am through with you...you are no one to me, my life is not changed by knowing you and your misquotes don't change my walk with God and my salvation and my peace with God....I find it quite ironic that through all of this silly quite obviously ridiculus attempt at proving us wrong, that i did this one quiz thing on line and it actually described me perfectly....It asked a series of questions and the results were "what bible book you are" based on your answers  i have described in great detail the love Christ has for us and His children...all you and others do is spew hatred and somehow try to use the Word of God to back it up....i realized though that it is not my place to show you how to do a simple verse look up and get the proper meanings and not your misconstrued meanings.....that it is not my job to teach you how to read your bible and how to do it properly...if i wasted my time with every internet person who tries to deface the Word of God, i would be taken off the path that is laid out for me... i guess my issue is i hate seeing the Bible misquoted and i hate that places like this is public and if someone doesn't speak truth then people could be misled...but it's not my job to correct every fake that comes around...if you truly know God, then He will handle you in His time...meanwhile, i will continue in my life and know what God needs me to do...and that is not to waste time with internet people who are likely just agnostics messing with people... |
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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Sept 5, 2008 16:34:53 GMT -5
i am not debating any further...i have learned that it's quite silly to try to speak the truth of God to people who misquote or misinterpret....it's quite easy on the internet to fake what people really are...all these debates are is just a distraction from the real task at hand...i could sit here obsessed at my computer at setting "miss spearmint" right...who for all i know is an athiest who knows the token things to misquote...i don't need to prove anything to anyone...i am in a fight for something i am quite passionate about and i know the rewards that God has given so far and i know the blessings and the lives i am seeing be blessed....Robert Shields went out in peace...Richard Cartwright went out in peace, they knew God and knew their destination.... Dearest Paleone! It would be a pity for "free speech and open debate" if you refuse to answer my scripturally based challenges! In this verse, which we dispute, you continue to ignore the proverbial elephant in the living room! multilingualbible.com/matthew/7-6.htm MAT 7:6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.Christ never disputes the humanity of those misled by evil! Christ in fact instructs us to turn the other cheek when they strike us! They are our misled brothers, neighbors, etc.. and they may see the light! When Christ speaks about those who are "truly evil" he does in fact dispute their humanity and refers to them as animals!! Dogs, pigs, vipers, etc..We are to give nothing that is holy to this 2nd class of evildoers! Paleone! Your attempt to interpret the verse above as simply referring to all people, who for whatever reason are not receptive to the teachings of Christ is wrong and insulting! Christ clearly states that these pigs and dogs are dangerous and can tear you to pieces! The original ancient Greek word which is translated as to "tear to pieces" was often used to describe the mauling attacks of wild animals! It's rather silly to claim that this "readiness for violence" refers to a peaceful non-believer! And Yes! Pigs and dogs were much more dangerous in Biblical times! It's true that some "modern theologians" seem disturbed by this passage and try to ignore it or misinterpret it, but this attempt to defame non-believers in general with this passage is unwarranted! If you or anyone truly is a real christian you'd take scripture to heart...and stop trying to slander people with the word of God...the Word of God is not to be used for destruction...and i am through with you...you are no one to me, my life is not changed by knowing you and your misquotes don't change my walk with God and my salvation and my peace with God....I find it quite ironic that through all of this silly quite obviously ridiculus attempt at proving us wrong, that i did this one quiz thing on line and it actually described me perfectly....It asked a series of questions and the results were "what bible book you are" based on your answers i have described in great detail the love Christ has for us and His children...all you and others do is spew hatred and somehow try to use the Word of God to back it up....i realized though that it is not my place to show you how to do a simple verse look up and get the proper meanings and not your misconstrued meanings.....that it is not my job to teach you how to read your bible and how to do it properly...if i wasted my time with every internet person who tries to deface the Word of God, i would be taken off the path that is laid out for me... i guess my issue is i hate seeing the Bible misquoted and i hate that places like this is public and if someone doesn't speak truth then people could be misled...but it's not my job to correct every fake that comes around...if you truly know God, then He will handle you in His time...meanwhile, i will continue in my life and know what God needs me to do...and that is not to waste time with internet people who are likely just agnostics messing with people... Sadly many modern Christians feel they should be the "sugar" of the earth and bring only sweetness to the world! Salt is bitter and kills bacteria and holds back the decay of perishable goods! Christ in Matthew Chapter 13 refers to evildoers in human form planted among us by Satan in his parable of the Wheat and the Tares! It is our duty to protect the innocent from these evildoers and powerful deterrents such as the DP may in fact be neccesary! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_and_Light QUOTE: The most important use of salt was as a preservative and hence the most common interpretation of the metaphor ( the salt of the earth ) is as asserting the duty to preserve the purity of the world.Why substitute an effective deterrent ( or preservative ) with a less effective deterrent ( or preservative ) ! You also don't explain why in Christ's parable of the vinyard it was obvious that these CAPITAL ROBBER MURDERERS were executed! Robbery+Murder is also a death penalty offense in the US! Lesser murderers are generally spared the DP in the Bible! I'm sure Saul and Cain also would have been spared the DP under US law! |
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Post by pumpkinpie on Sept 5, 2008 21:22:09 GMT -5
MAT 7:6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
This means- do not give to a person who has repeatedly mistreated you, making them unworthy of the "pearls." If one goes back to an abuser or bad friendship, they will continue to be abused/mistreated by that person, no matter how much they give. What they give will just be torn to pieces, along with them... I didn't quite see how that example had anything to do with the death penalty.
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Post by happyhaddock on Sept 6, 2008 12:49:40 GMT -5
... THOU SHALT NOT KILL.. it didn't have exceptions or amendments.. it was pretty straight forward. ... Except that is a mistranslation. The correct version is Lo Tirtzach - Do No Murder. And murder was very narrowly defined - many things we now call murder were not in those times. |
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Post by skyloom on Sept 6, 2008 15:42:49 GMT -5
Except that is a mistranslation. The correct version is Lo Tirtzach - Do No Murder. And murder was very narrowly defined - many things we now call murder were not in those times. Exactly right, HappyHaddock! In fact, doesn't the Old Testament say that in order to be a murder, the act had to be witnessed by two other men who, in addition to witnessing also warned the potential murderer that what he was about to do was a serious offense against the Creator and punishable by death? (Or is that part in the Talmud?) Also, Paleone earlier did another good job of explaining why capital punishment is such a bad idea. The Old Testament lists many offenses for which the punishment can be death, including dishonoring the Sabbath, disrespecting parents, and eating food that is not kosher. Seems to me that if you're going to cite the Old Testament as a justification for capital punishment, you'd do better to cite all of what it says... and obey its teachings on everything! Conversely, if you choose to dismiss it with regard to your sassy children or the lobster you had for dinner, perhaps you'd do well to disregard it with regard to murder as well. |
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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Sept 11, 2008 1:57:34 GMT -5
Except that is a mistranslation. The correct version is Lo Tirtzach - Do No Murder. And murder was very narrowly defined - many things we now call murder were not in those times. Exactly right, HappyHaddock! In fact, doesn't the Old Testament say that in order to be a murder, the act had to be witnessed by two other men who, in addition to witnessing also warned the potential murderer that what he was about to do was a serious offense against the Creator and punishable by death? (Or is that part in the Talmud?) Also, Paleone earlier did another good job of explaining why capital punishment is such a bad idea. The Old Testament lists many offenses for which the punishment can be death, including dishonoring the Sabbath, disrespecting parents, and eating food that is not kosher. Seems to me that if you're going to cite the Old Testament as a justification for capital punishment, you'd do better to cite all of what it says... and obey its teachings on everything! Conversely, if you choose to dismiss it with regard to your sassy children or the lobster you had for dinner, perhaps you'd do well to disregard it with regard to murder as well. Dearest SkyLoom! I just wanted to mention that for Christians the prohition on eating Lobster and other so-called impure foods was lifted with Peter's vision in Acts !0-11-13 etc. www.newadvent.org/bible/act010.htmAs far as the Old testament death penalty laws go! I have to humbly express my opinion that in view of the famines and other hardships many Israelites did not survive a bad harvest and these laws were designed to protect those who were worth saving in God's eyes! A contempary example would be the sinking of Titanic! Yes the homosexual and the adulteress were left on the sinking ship and the father and mother of 5 children were given a place on the rescure boats! As soon as an emergency emerges and we are forced to choose who lives and who dies these decisions will be based on Mosaic Law! |
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Post by happyhaddock on Sept 11, 2008 12:15:19 GMT -5
... A contempary example would be the sinking of Titanic! Yes the homosexual and the adulteress were left on the sinking ship and the father and mother of 5 children were given a place on the rescure boats! As soon as an emergency emerges and we are forced to choose who lives and who dies these decisions will be based on Mosaic Law! There was no such thing as a 'homosexual' in either the OT or the NT. They did not have that concept in those times. And if they are so bad, why did Jesus himself cure one of sickness? As for adultery, polygamy was the norm in those days as was the keeping of concubines. Are you in favor of those practices also? The one thing Jesus did say was that divorce was wrong - and yet half of marriages end in divorce. |
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Post by happyhaddock on Sept 11, 2008 12:31:16 GMT -5
And I have a hebrew/greek "key word" bible which gives accurate descriptions on what words meant. it also gives historical backrounds like for what the culture was like and so on...it also has the commentaries that explain things.. Which one? i mean heck, Jesus stopped a woman from being stoned (which at the time was the laws of the land) It's now believed that this was added later and is not something he ever said. |
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Post by happyhaddock on Sept 11, 2008 12:33:56 GMT -5
As a believer in Christ, I SO wish He spoke in terms that were easy to interpret rather than the parables. These things are the cause for much confusion and I, for one thank Paleone for helping me understand them! Miles They made perfect sense to the listeners at the time. Unfortunately without a thorough knowledge of the times, the politics and without a thorough knowledge of the religious background and concepts it is all too easy to misunderstand the whole of the NT. Too many these days use the bible as a book of magic spells. |
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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Sept 12, 2008 10:51:43 GMT -5
... A contempary example would be the sinking of Titanic! Yes the homosexual and the adulteress were left on the sinking ship and the father and mother of 5 children were given a place on the rescure boats! As soon as an emergency emerges and we are forced to choose who lives and who dies these decisions will be based on Mosaic Law! There was no such thing as a 'homosexual' in either the OT or the NT. They did not have that concept in those times. And if they are so bad, why did Jesus himself cure one of sickness? As for adultery, polygamy was the norm in those days as was the keeping of concubines. Are you in favor of those practices also? The one thing Jesus did say was that divorce was wrong - and yet half of marriages end in divorce. True Haddock! There was no word for homosexuality, but it was described in passages like this.. www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibh3.htm QUOTE: "And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." I'm confident that Christ would have stopped the stoning of a homosexual as he stopped the stoning of an adulteress! The economic situation had improved from the time of Moses and there was no longer this nightmarish scenario of choosing who lives and who dies during famines! |
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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Sept 12, 2008 20:54:10 GMT -5
MAT 7:6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. This means- do not give to a person who has repeatedly mistreated you, making them unworthy of the "pearls." If one goes back to an abuser or bad friendship, they will continue to be abused/mistreated by that person, no matter how much they give. What they give will just be torn to pieces, along with them... I didn't quite see how that example had anything to do with the death penalty. Hi PumpkinPie and thanks for the response! Sorry i didn't get around to responding sooner! Me and Paleone disagree on who Christ was referring too here in Matt:7-6! I maintain that Christ is referring to the absolute worst of the worst of those possessing a human form! This group may be as small as 1 in a million in my opinion! Paleone obviously feels that the procent of humanity corresponding to this passage is much higher! Certainly no one expects you or anyone to stay in an abusive relationship with someone, who has an evil streak, but i think it's highly unlikely that you or most people had a relationship with such an absolutely irredeemably evil person as Christ describes! In Matthew 13;38-39 Christ explains his parable of the good seeds and the bad seeds, which is about humanity! This conclusion that some possessing a human form have the soul of a demon is very hard to escape if you read the entire parable with Christ's explanation!  Christ confirms that some people are truly good-although they may be misled-and others are truly evil and will never bring forth anything good! The worst of the worst of the murderers belong of course to second category! bible.cc/luke/6-44.htm because every tree is known by its own fruit. People don't gather figs from thorny plants or pick grapes from a thorn bush.bible.cc/luke/6-45.htm A good person produces good from the good treasure of his heart, and an evil person produces evil from an evil treasure, because the mouth speaks from the overflow of the heart."bible.cc/matthew/12-35.htmA good person brings good things out of a good treasure house, and an evil person brings evil things out of an evil treasure house.In answer to your question what does Matt: 7-6 have to do with the DP? It has to do with who is eligible for the DP in my opinion! The DP is reserved for the worst of the worst such as the murderers in Christ's parable of the vinyard! If Cain and Saul committed the same murders in the US they would have been spared the DP as in the Bible! More later!   |
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