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Post by paleone on Aug 18, 2005 13:54:13 GMT -5
Exactly yeller! Jesus took upon the sins of the world when He died on the cross. So if He took upon all those sins, it included the sins of current murderers...so was His death on the cross and resurrection done in vain then? I think not.
this does not mean to let them all free..there are consequences. but death is no longer needed.
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Post by truth1 on Aug 18, 2005 16:06:06 GMT -5
THOU SHALT NOT KILL.. it didnt have exceptions or amendments.. it was pretty straight forward ... I know that the Baptists (again of which i am) use several verses out of context to bolster their belief in the death penalty. If it wasnt for Rich's case and further studying in the bible, i too would still follow this belief. Once i read it myself, with an open mind and without being FORCED to listen to just what the pastor wanted me to hear, i knew i was right, That my God would not justify the murder of a murderer, revenge is preached AGAINST in the New Testament. Here's another anti also putting in two cents worth; mainly to support what armywife has written. There was, indeed, no stipulation or addendum to THOU SHALT NOT KILL in the Bible. It says to me that it's wrong to take a life. Period. Atone for it and you are forgiven. That is the promise God made through the death of Jesus Christ. He is where the buck stops. And, I would like to add that we shouldn't just zero in on Baptists as picking and choosing Scripture to suit their taste; all Christians are capable of hiding behind snippets of Bible verses, regardless of whether they are Baptists or not. Indeed, Christ's teachings and faith structure provided for "turn the other cheek" rather than strike back, with a death for a death. What purpose does revenge serve? In my experience, from what I've read elsewhere from pros on this board, revenge serves to harden hearts to the point of making forgiveness impossible. In the New Testament, Paul was responsible for the brutal deaths of hundreds of Christians, yet God chose him to act as his instrument through conversion. If Paul could be forgiven, then so can we all. Thanks, Miles. Great question, from any angle. Missy As Norman Schwarzkopf once said, "It is not our job to judge them--that is up to god. Our job is to arrange the meeting".
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Post by sclcookie on Aug 18, 2005 20:08:43 GMT -5
Here's another anti also putting in two cents worth; mainly to support what armywife has written. There was, indeed, no stipulation or addendum to THOU SHALT NOT KILL in the Bible. It says to me that it's wrong to take a life. Period. Atone for it and you are forgiven. That is the promise God made through the death of Jesus Christ. He is where the buck stops. And, I would like to add that we shouldn't just zero in on Baptists as picking and choosing Scripture to suit their taste; all Christians are capable of hiding behind snippets of Bible verses, regardless of whether they are Baptists or not. Indeed, Christ's teachings and faith structure provided for "turn the other cheek" rather than strike back, with a death for a death. What purpose does revenge serve? In my experience, from what I've read elsewhere from pros on this board, revenge serves to harden hearts to the point of making forgiveness impossible. In the New Testament, Paul was responsible for the brutal deaths of hundreds of Christians, yet God chose him to act as his instrument through conversion. If Paul could be forgiven, then so can we all. Thanks, Miles. Great question, from any angle. Missy As Norman Schwarzkopf once said, "It is not our job to judge them--that is up to god. Our job is to arrange the meeting". So does "our" mean anyone? or who decides our? Does God approve of who we appoint to do the job? hmmmmmm
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Post by cookiemonster on Aug 18, 2005 21:31:14 GMT -5
God has already appointed someone to do the job. The only question remaining is when will he have to start judging.
JC
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Post by paleone on Aug 18, 2005 22:30:03 GMT -5
God has already appointed someone to do the job. The only question remaining is when will he have to start judging. JC right, and the judging that even will be done is whether or not we accepted Christ as our savior and if we had repented. Bottom line.,. haha james your signature looks like you are saying "JC as in Jesus Christ" hahaha
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Post by spearmint on Aug 19, 2005 8:58:06 GMT -5
First off paleone quoting the phrase 'judge not lest you be judged' in the manner you imply would suggest that we couldn't judge cruel and heinous criminals like the BTK killer. Locking them up in prison is also a judgement. Christ did not correct the other man who was crucified with him when this man said his punishment-the DP was just. You accused me of misquoting Matthew 7:6 and suggest that the pigs and dogs Christ spoke of were non-criminals simply not receptive to our Lord's teachings. In reality Christ describes these pigs and dogs as criminally agressive and dangerous-they can attack you and tear you to pieces ( murder ). bible.cc/matthew/7-6.htm"Don't give that which is holy to the dogs, neither throw your pearls before the pigs, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces. (WEB) Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before the swine, lest haply they trample them under their feet, and turn and rend you. (ASV) Do not give that which is holy to the dogs, or put your jewels before pigs, for fear that they will be crushed under foot by the pigs whose attack will then be made against you. (BBE) Give not that which is holy to the dogs, nor cast your pearls before the swine, lest they trample them with their feet, and turning round rend you. (DBY) Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. (KJV) Give not that which is holy to dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. (WBS) "Give not that which is holy to the dogs, nor throw your pearls to the swine; otherwise they will trample them under their feet and then turn and attack you. (WEY) Ye may not give that which is 'holy' to the dogs, nor cast your pearls before the swine, that they may not trample them among their feet, and having turned -- may rend you. (YLT) ****************************************** The humanist religion has hijacked Christianity with it's fetishistic worship of everything in human form and it's dogma that all people are good. In reality we have to deter the evil in the world and prevent it from harming that which is good. In ancient times salt was used instead of refriegeration to hold back the forces of decay. Thus we are to be like this salt and not like sweet sugar as the humanist religion proposes. "You are the salt of the earth; but if salt has become tasteless, in what way can it regain its saltness? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown away and trodden on by the passers by." Matthew 5:13 The death penalty has been throughout history and worldwide a very effective deterrent against cruel and heinous murders. True the deterrent effect has been weakened by the anti movement which sends the message to potential murders that there is a lack of resolve surrounding the DP and murderers can expect a lot of helpful allies should they face the DP. Nevertheless the rise of cruel and heinous murders during the 70s when the US Supreme Court outlawed the DP show us how potential murderers would react to the 'loving gesture' of outlawing the DP. In this period bundy and gacy committed their first murders and became so addicted to their evil that they couldn't stop when the DP was reinstated. In one point I agree with you that we are all sinners. We have our weaknesses of course and through constant prayer we need guidance always to prevent our hearts from hardening or becoming like the useless salt no longer capable of holding back corruption.
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Post by paleone on Aug 19, 2005 9:20:59 GMT -5
First off paleone quoting the phrase 'judge not lest you be judged' in the manner you imply would suggest that we couldn't judge cruel and heinous criminals like the BTK killer. Locking them up in prison is also a judgement. Christ did not correct the other man who was crucified with him when this man said his punishment-the DP was just. You accused me of misquoting Matthew 7:6 and suggest that the pigs and dogs Christ spoke of were non-criminals simply not receptive to our Lord's teachings. In reality Christ describes these pigs and dogs as criminally agressive and dangerous-they can attack you and tear you to pieces ( murder ). It is speaking of judging as in saying someone is less than us...it says not to look at the speck in your brother's eye while we have a beam in our own...i can't walk up to someone and say "you know what, you are a sinner, you are angering God because you are having premarital sex" because i am not supposed to do that...because i am not perfect and if i were to do that, it says that i think i am sinless...but i may have my own beam in my eye...that is exactly what that scripture is saying...that scripture has nothing to do with murder...i have never once said a criminal cannot be judged in a court room...i have reiterated many many many times that i do not oppose to prison terms...i oppose to DEATH.... i have already described the pearls thing...if we give something of worth to someone who is not willing to accept that it is of worth, they will treat it that way..ok let's think of it in a different scenerio...you have an antique vase...you give that antique to a 4 year old as a present...the 4 year old sees it as a toy, maybe that 4 year old will throw it onto the ground, crashing it into pieces...that 4 year old had no idea what the value of that vase was...and therefore did not regard it as anything of importance...if you throw pearls into a pig pen, that pig is going to trample it beneith it's feet and not care whatsoever that you just threw something precious into it's cage..the scripture is talking about that we are not to be judgemental...judgemental is not meaning not to have a "justice system" i never said that...it means as a person, we are not to JUDGE people...meaning, you or anyone else coming on here and saying so and so is such a monster and deserves to rot and die in hell...(you didn't use those words, i am giving an example)...but by saying "so and so deserves to rot in hell" is saying that you* (*figuratively speaking) are judging them on their crime...if they had never done their crime, i doubt you* would just say to any random person "die and rot in hell"....but the very fact that we have all sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God means that we all "deserve" to rot in hell...which is what the whole beam comment is about...how can we call someone a monster, when in our sin, we are all monsters? so to run around life calling prisoners monsters, they are judging the prisoners, and not loving them... we are called to love our neighbors, and to love our ENEMIES....so if you* think that the murderers are enemies which i would assume to be the fact if they are being called monsters, and we are not loving them, then we are not following the simple principles of Christ's teachings. i am quite far from humanistic christianity thank you very much...i am very militant in my walk with God...i take God very seriously and i know what the bible says about love, forgiveness, mercy, grace.
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Post by paleone on Aug 19, 2005 9:23:14 GMT -5
Here is commentary on Matthew 7 that i found:
Christ reproves rash judgment.
We must judge ourselves, and judge of our own acts, but not make our word a law to everybody. We must not judge rashly, nor pass judgment upon our brother without any ground. We must not make the worst of people. Here is a just reproof to those who quarrel with their brethren for small faults, while they allow themselves in greater ones. Some sins are as motes, while others are as beams; some as a gnat, others as a camel. Not that there is any sin little; if it be a mote, or
splinter, it is in the eye; if a gnat, it is in the throat; both are painful and dangerous, and we cannot be easy or well till they are got out. That which charity teaches us to call but a splinter in our brother's eye, true repentance and godly sorrow will teach us to call a beam in our own. It is as strange that a man can be in a sinful, miserable condition, and not be aware of it, as that a man should have a beam in his eye, and not consider it; but the god of this world blinds their minds.
Here is a good rule for reprovers; first reform thyself. (Mt 7:7-11)
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Post by paleone on Aug 19, 2005 9:29:46 GMT -5
Another commentary specifically for Matthew 7:6
Matthew 7:6
DOGS ... PIGS = These animals are classified as "unclean" according to Old Testament law and thus were good examples for Christ's teaching. In context Jesus was not defending the Old Testament's laws of "clean" and "unclean" animals or foods, rather He was using this concept to teach His listeners that some people will not accept rebuke even when the rebuke is given in Christian love. In that case, stay away from them and let them devour one another rather than you.
which again, is saying that we will come across those who reject what we say, and so we are in essence, throwing something precious to someone who is not accepting it as precious.
has nothing to do with murderers...any study bible and extended learning on this verse will show you that.
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Post by truth1 on Aug 22, 2005 10:51:45 GMT -5
I have always held the belief that humans are animals. I know that is a no-no in certain religions--but, I honestly believe that it is the truth.
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Post by spearmint on Aug 23, 2005 13:08:58 GMT -5
Christ obviously modified many of the Old Testament Laws. Animal sacrifices ceased, Jesus saved an adultress from the sentence of death via stoning and i believe that Christ would have saved a homosexual or someone violating the Sabbath laws as well in this position. As far as murder goes however in the parable of the vinyard ( garden ) the workers who murdered the son of the vinyard's owner were in Christ's words put to death. This was so obvious that Christ didn't elaborate much on this. A key quote from this parable is on my profile below!
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Post by sclcookie on Aug 23, 2005 20:54:00 GMT -5
I'd like to see other religious points of view. Obviously, not all are "Christians". There are many religions and interpretations.
I do know one thing, being there myself, executions are evil. You can hide behind the Old Testament saying "eye for an eye". It doesn't change that fact that executions are evil, regardless of ones religious beliefs or what they believe the bible says.
Anyone who has ever been at the scene of the murder should also witness an execution. Yes, a murder is visually worse (I can describe, but I don't have to I'm sure), however, I'll guarentee the evil in the air at the scene of a murder and an execution are the same, reguardless of bible interpretations.
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Post by paleone on Aug 23, 2005 23:08:46 GMT -5
Christ obviously modified many of the Old Testament Laws. Animal sacrifices ceased, Jesus saved an adultress from the sentence of death via stoning and i believe that Christ would have saved a homosexual or someone violating the Sabbath laws as well in this position. As far as murder goes however in the parable of the vinyard ( garden ) the workers who murdered the son of the vinyard's owner were in Christ's words put to death. This was so obvious that Christ didn't elaborate much on this. A key quote from this parable is on my profile below! that's right...murder is above all sin that Jesus died on a cross for right? come on now... now tell me something...the OT needed the DP to atone for sin...if someone sinned against someone they were allowed the DP...but Jesus atoned for ALL of that...and we therefore have the ability to be "Saved" and be "washed clean"....why in the world would Jesus Die a murderer's death, atone for the sins of the world only to ask of us that we still atone for sin??? what you are in essance saying is a man may very well get saved while in prison, but must still pay the price because gosh darn it, God had the DP in the OT....sorry....don't happen that way...God does not ask for double atonement...atonement is done.... and once i am done with this, i will stop casting my pearls to swine, you obviously do not value life as God has asked us to....read the verses i have provided in my past posts and signature...
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Post by paleone on Aug 23, 2005 23:14:01 GMT -5
Christ obviously modified many of the Old Testament Laws. Animal sacrifices ceased, Jesus saved an adultress from the sentence of death via stoning and i believe that Christ would have saved a homosexual or someone violating the Sabbath laws as well in this position. As far as murder goes however in the parable of the vinyard ( garden ) the workers who murdered the son of the vinyard's owner were in Christ's words put to death. This was so obvious that Christ didn't elaborate much on this. A key quote from this parable is on my profile below! here i go again with commentary....people really really should "study to show themselves approved" See, you can say loads of stuff you THINK the bible says...and yet you can do extensive studies and learn for yourself....you somehow have an issue with interpreting parables...fine so be it...you haven't responded to the swine, i guess you realized you misquoted..but it's ok here's another commentary i found: Mark 12:9 What therefore will the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others. In Mark's abbreviation of this, the important fact of the Lord's extracting the prophecy of the removal and destruction of the husbandmen and the letting of the vineyard out to others from the lips of the priests themselves is not mentioned. The fact that "others" would "render him the fruits in their seasons" was also omitted by Mark. (See 21:40,41). This verse is a clear prophecy that God would destroy Israel and extend salvation to the Gentiles, a prophecy fulfilled by the fact of God's sending the message of redemption to all the world (also including Israel), and by the further fact that the mainstream of true faith in God would, for nearly two millenniums, take on a Gentile identification.
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Post by spearmint on Aug 24, 2005 7:52:14 GMT -5
Christ obviously modified many of the Old Testament Laws. Animal sacrifices ceased, Jesus saved an adultress from the sentence of death via stoning and i believe that Christ would have saved a homosexual or someone violating the Sabbath laws as well in this position. As far as murder goes however in the parable of the vinyard ( garden ) the workers who murdered the son of the vinyard's owner were in Christ's words put to death. This was so obvious that Christ didn't elaborate much on this. A key quote from this parable is on my profile below! that's right...murder is above all sin that Jesus died on a cross for right? come on now... now tell me something...the OT needed the DP to atone for sin...if someone sinned against someone they were allowed the DP...but Jesus atoned for ALL of that...and we therefore have the ability to be "Saved" and be "washed clean"....why in the world would Jesus Die a murderer's death, atone for the sins of the world only to ask of us that we still atone for sin??? what you are in essance saying is a man may very well get saved while in prison, but must still pay the price because gosh darn it, God had the DP in the OT....sorry....don't happen that way...God does not ask for double atonement...atonement is done.... and once i am done with this, i will stop casting my pearls to swine, you obviously do not value life as God has asked us to....read the verses i have provided in my past posts and signature... I value the life of the good and innocent very much. You seem to constantly ignore or play down the reason Christ gave to not give pearls to pigs-because they are violent and will harm you. I've visited and written letters to people in prison for lesser crimes or political reasons. All these people should come before a cruel and heinous murderer like the abductor, rapist and murderer of 1 year old Amy Sue Seitz for example. This little girl was skinned alive by this evildoer. www.cybersleuths.com/billkelly/bkchap1.htmwww.wtv-zone.com/LadyMaggie/php/AmySueStory.htmlVisting such an evildoer as Amy's murderer in prison would mean bypassing all the prisoners worldwide who are more worthy of our caring. It would also build the cult status of those who choose evil. You make them significance, the focus of attention. This confirms their narcissism and lowers the deterrent effect of prison in the eyes of others capable of such horrible, sadistic murders. Christ said many things with few words. His parable of the vinyard was a message to the Pharisees, concerning the destruction of Israel, but his parables also contain social and judical commentaries and so much more that we're not aware of. Nowhere does Christ say that his death would mean outlawing capital punishment. In Luke 22: 36, etc. Christ, knowing he will be leaving this world physically, advises his followers to sell their cloaks to buy swords. They obviously weren't going to be slicing bread with these swords. There is evil in this world and evil must be held back or deterred. King Saul fell from God's grace because he refused to carry out a death sentence against a captive Moabite King. I believe this death sentence was meant to deter other tribal kings from harming God's people.
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