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Post by sclcookie on Jul 3, 2005 18:26:31 GMT -5
See, capital murder is classified different than robbery or aggravated robbery:
(b) An offense under this section is a capital felony.
The above is so you won't have to search for the offense, but of coarse below is the whole thing on capital murder.
ยง 19.03. CAPITAL MURDER. (a) A person commits an offense if the person commits murder as defined under Section 19.02(b)(1) and: (1) the person murders a peace officer or fireman who is acting in the lawful discharge of an official duty and who the person knows is a peace officer or fireman; (2) the person intentionally commits the murder in the course of committing or attempting to commit kidnapping, burglary, robbery, aggravated sexual assault, arson, obstruction or retaliation, or terroristic threat under Section 22.07(a)(1), (3), (4), (5), or (6); (3) the person commits the murder for remuneration or the promise of remuneration or employs another to commit the murder for remuneration or the promise of remuneration; (4) the person commits the murder while escaping or attempting to escape from a penal institution; (5) the person, while incarcerated in a penal institution, murders another: (A) who is employed in the operation of the penal institution; or (B) with the intent to establish, maintain, or participate in a combination or in the profits of a combination; (6) the person: (A) while incarcerated for an offense under this section or Section 19.02, murders another; or (B) while serving a sentence of life imprisonment or a term of 99 years for an offense under Section 20.04, 22.021, or 29.03, murders another; (7) the person murders more than one person: (A) during the same criminal transaction; or (B) during different criminal transactions but the murders are committed pursuant to the same scheme or course of conduct; or (8) the person murders an individual under six years of age. (b) An offense under this section is a capital felony. (c) If the jury or, when authorized by law, the judge does not find beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant is guilty of an offense under this section, he may be convicted of murder or of any other lesser included offense.
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Post by antideathpen67 on Jul 3, 2005 18:28:31 GMT -5
What antis dont understand is justice. It needs to have a meaning. Not LWOP, but the DP for murderers. You can get LWOP for robbery, for drug offenses, do you think those are on the same level as serial killers? I certainly dont and that is why there needs to be a more severe punishment for more severe crimes. Sorry, 15 years in germany is for murder... 7, 8 , 9 years for robbery, drug offenses probation or maybe a few years... so for murder the punishment is more severe.... Also for people that place a future danger, they can be locked up for life, don't know what you call it in english though, its an adding to the life sentence, which is 15 years here
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Post by blahblahblah on Jul 3, 2005 21:17:08 GMT -5
15 years for murder eh? Life is pretty cheap in Germany I guess.
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Post by garp on Jul 3, 2005 21:26:57 GMT -5
Life is cheap in Germany...all you have to do is look at history to see that...
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Post by lene on Jul 4, 2005 5:08:18 GMT -5
In Norway the strongest sentence is 21 years. Would it be a valid argument to use our history with the vikings against us today? I hardly think so. I don't see Norwegians and Germans down in Iraq killing people like life has no value... So perhaps we should leave history alone since our generation couldn't do and say much about what went on before. It's not like we were alive at that point, and we are not guilty of our "fathers" sins.
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Post by tulla63 on Jul 4, 2005 5:33:33 GMT -5
In addition to the "max". 21 years in prison, we've recently got the possibility to keep a person in prison indefinitely depending on how the prisoner has been conducting himself / herself while serving time. There's no denying that some should never be released. I'm not sure as to what exactly (aside from prior history) they base their decisions upon, but I can try to check it out.
Another thing that should be discussed, is what is being done to rehabilitate criminals. Since we don't have any death penalty, we do not have any other choice than to TRY to rehabilitate criminal offenders, OR - keep them in prison forever if necessary.
Of course it's "easier" to poison a man to death than to rehabilitate. However, if we want to value human lives, if that's not only BIG EMPTY WORDS, the society needs to take the lead. A problem I often run into while discussing rehabilitation, is that many seem to think that I'm willing to "reward" criminal behavior with "treatment". That's not the case.
If you succeed to rehabilitate, we're all safer. An investment for us all.
Turid
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Post by ela on Jul 4, 2005 5:50:54 GMT -5
This is a good one... NOW, if a country doesn't apply death penalty it means that "life is pretty cheap" for those states.... Death penalty belongs to DICTATORSHIPS, 3th world countries.. and of course USA.. THE BIG DEMOCRACY... lol lol lol 1) Europe can look at history becouse WE have an history.... What I see is that after our totalitarianism governments, we had no more dictatorship politics... WE are democratic, and democracy CAN NOT ALLOW AND TOLERATE death penalty.
Just to go back to this thread; I don't see any new arguments.... The only new argument I see is that someone said again that we DON'T understand.... again... you are relly kind!!!!
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Post by tulla63 on Jul 4, 2005 5:53:00 GMT -5
No reason is good enough. Death IS completely different from anything else.
I guess ela was looking for whatever reasonable argument you might have. (Unsucessfully so). I hardly think it's ela's job to come up with well founded and reasonable arguments to keep the death penalty.
Absolutely not. Besides, that wasn't an argument. It was your subjective opinion.
Habitual thinking. In other countries, there are countless murderers and rapists behind bars in prisons so secure that some of them don't even get to see the daylight. Why don't you just say what you mean right out? It's about revenge. That's all there is to it. I do understand the urge for revenge - believe me - but why make up arguments then? Let's discuss the real reason: It's about revenge! I've seen cases in which a person has been sentenced to death, spent years and years on death row - once they were released, no one ever looked for the real killer anymore. Why is that? If it's all about public safety?
No. They should be in a maximum security prison.
Judging by what you write here, I don't believe you when you say you would like to ship them off to Canada and let them loose. It sounds more like you won't be satisfied before they're killed. I might be wrong. If so - I apologize - but that is what your posting sounds like.
Turid
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Post by tulla63 on Jul 4, 2005 8:23:52 GMT -5
Well - that's not entirely correct. Chaos reigns many European countries to date. It's only a couple of years since Turkey, Russia, Poland and Albania abolished the death penalty, and I'm not sure if it's totally abolished both in civil and military law everywhere in Europe.
When it comes to a democratic Europe: Whether it's a totalitarian regime or entire nations totally run by mafia, its still not democracy, and many of our nations have a long way to go. This is something we have responsibility for along with the rest of the world.
However, I think I understand what you mean. Correct me if I'm wrong: The Wall is gone, communism is hopefully dead, so is nazism - hopefully forever. Europe did learn a lesson which I hope will NEVER be forgotten. Please allow me a little digretion: Our generation was raised by the partisans from WWII. Some of us have parents, granparents, uncles, etc. that went up in flames in the extermination camps during WWII.
This continent as a whole cannot be expected to have totally forgotten such horror after only 60 some years. These people raised us. Although I AM NOT BY ANY MEANS comparing, I will allow myself to say that the way we were raised must have played a role in the way we view "human rights" today. I'm NOT saying that we're more or less "right" than others. Only that we have DIFFERENT views due to differences in experiences - within a relatively short period in time.
It might have given a different perspective on various things, but we're in no position to dictate anything where we don't live. This is my personal view on this: We can freely offer our opinions seen from our standpoint. If it's not accepted, there's nothing we can do other than to talk and try to convince the best we can.
I might have misunderstood you, but I don't think it's right of Europeans to claim to represent a "moral high-ground" based on our history. We can try to share our own values. The US is trying to share theirs with us. The only way to accomplish anything, is to keep communicating.
If I misunderstood you, I'm sorry. Feel free to correct me where I'm wrong.
Turid
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Post by tulla63 on Jul 4, 2005 8:29:45 GMT -5
Life is cheap in Germany...all you have to do is look at history to see that... I agree that if we look at the history, we don't have too much to brag about here in Europe. However, your "argument" was uncalled for and under the belt. Turid
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Post by CCADP on Jul 4, 2005 8:32:08 GMT -5
Garp; if you know YOUR history; the US has little to brag about either! At least unlike US; the human rights abuses are not ongoing...they are not exporting their human rights abuses and using their power and their media as a smokescreen for what they actually do around the world. The hatred of America that exists in the world did not come about in a vaccuum.
By the way; I am in Canada.
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Post by ela on Jul 4, 2005 9:50:14 GMT -5
Tulla.... I mean EUROPEAN UNION..Poland is member of European union since 2004, Turkey should become member in 2007,Russia, and Albany are not members of European community; and those are not Democratic countries. Is there democracy in Turkey? LOL
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Post by ela on Jul 4, 2005 10:02:40 GMT -5
Of course I don't want to dictate anything, but I know very well what a democracy is. And USA is not a democratic country. Where there is democracy, death penalty shoudln't be tolerated. Where we had totalitarianism for longer time, it was first of all for economical reasons ( Czech republic and other places in east for example); what I mean, is that those places who are a bit "late" with economy and human rights, are the ones that keep going death penalty... I can not understand how usa, " DEMOCRATIC" ,powerfull, and rich country, can keep going such a method of puynnishment, that belongs only to poor and arrear countries. Yes, I think we have can teach something about Democracy... Italy at least... but for what I have seen in other european countries too..... USA have a lot to learn...
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Post by tulla63 on Jul 4, 2005 10:04:49 GMT -5
Of course I don't want to dictate anything, but I know very well what a democracy is. And USA is not a democratic country. Where there is democracy, death penalty shoudln't be tolerated. Where we had totalitarianism for longer time, it was first of all for economical reasons ( Czech republic and other places in east for example); what I mean, is that those places who are a bit "late" with economy and human rights, are the ones that keep going death penalty... I can not understand how usa, " DEMOCRATIC" ,powerfull, and rich country, can keep going such a method of puynnishment, that belongs only to poor and arrear countries. Yes, I think we have can teach something about Democracy... Italy at least... but for what I have seen in other european countries too..... USA have a lot to learn... ---and I totally agree with you on this. Love, Turid
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Post by tulla63 on Jul 4, 2005 10:41:13 GMT -5
Tulla.... I mean EUROPEAN UNION..Poland is member of European union since 2004, Turkey should become member in 2007,Russia, and Albany are not members of European community; and those are not Democratic countries. Is there democracy in Turkey? LOL OK. We were talking about different things. I wasn't referring to EU specifically. Didn't realize you were discussing that question. Norway said no thanks to EU membership twice, and that is probably why I didn't think in the same lines as you did. My mistake. Love, Turid
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