Maybe you will hear me out here...

[blackstar]

Hello, I'll use exactly the same introduction as I did on www.off2dr.com in the following topic, always interesting to read.

off2dr.com/modules/smf/index.php?topic=1891.150

Hello, I'm new here. Brief introduction:

My name is Jordi, I am 28 years old, male, born in Belgium (the Flemish part). I have lived in England and Spain for the past years and I'm back since December last year.

I'm neither against, nor in favour. Frankly, I still don't know what to think of it, and I guess I never will. I must say that 90% of our population is against Capital Punishment, in fact, it's not even a topic.

My attention got drawn when I found out about Aileen Carol Wuournos, executed in October 2002.
Then, later on I wrote a couple of letters to a Texas DR inmate. I soon changed my mind though, I didn't want to get too involved. Some people here claim that penpals are mainly loners. I must admit, it was in a period in which I felt quite depressed. So you are right in a way.

Karl Chamberlain. Don't know. Was he the man he was back in '91 when he killed Prechtl? Does his Mum diserve to see her son being killed? No. But let me tell you one thing. I still haven't figuered it out yet, as stated previously, BUT:

If I find my Mum the way her son did, I'd want revenge, hell yeah I would. But there again, if Karl was my son, I wouldn't want the State to kill him either. No matter what scumbag he is, he's still my son. So, doesn't it depend on which side of the fence you're on?

That's why, with all do respect, I find some people amongst you downright foolish, to say the least. Counting down to someone death is not only silly, it's cruel and sad. Only if you're related to the victim, I'd understand. But not if you're a complete stranger to either involved. Then you seem to be a frustrated, bad person to me.

According to Karl's last words, I sincerely believe he was remorseful. I don't think he should ve been executed. Life in prison, but yet again this is debatable, is a far worse punishment to me. I'd go for State Assisted suicide. Just like Elijah Page. That scumbag got awarded for his crimes, if you ask me.

Anyway, this seems to be a forum where I'll have lots of "fun", if this is the appropriate word. Convince me, I need it.

I received positive reactions on this post. It sounded promising, against all odds... (so I thought)

However, after some browsing on that site I expressed following opinion:

Don't know. I was initially looking for some relatively unbiased info on the CP subject.
Unfortunately, I don't think I'll find it here. But hey, surprise surprise Black Star: you're on "Pro" Death Penalty!

Nevertheless, most people don't care about guilt or innocence. In my opinion most of the users here seek for vengeance one way or another. Some people were involved in murdercases, and who am I to tell them not cheer for state murderings. Like I said, I don't know how I would react.

But I didn't lose a relative and I know not all of you did either. So I still don't know how YOU could honnor a victim YOU never knew and who will NEVER know YOU nor about the fact that her/his killer is murdered (in a legal way) by supporting another murdercase?! Gosh, I hope God will bring you all to justice as well, for seeking amusement in someone's death. In this specific case I do think more about Karl's Mum than Felicia's son. It's both a horrific tragedy. But Muina's is a new one, one who could've been avoided. Karl should ve thought about it in the first place: Correct. But that doesn't mean his Mum signed up for it. Chad's Mum will not come back, she will still be raped and murdered. Where the hell is that closure you're always on about? It's merely a personal problem you people have, I think: kill kill kill! (is all I read here)

Btw, you all seem to know the victim's names. Good. I bet you never even think about the parents, friends en other relatives of the offender. Hell, maybe you think they should be executed too...

This site did it for me when I read about that Scotsman, released from Death Row. So I presume he is innocent. Yet you people still want him dead, cause he's an addict. Well, people, let's start executing shoplifters.

No need to ban me, I leave myself after a brief appearance on this site.

Respect for all people and may God be mercifull on the executioners and their supporters.
You believe in a severe, punishing God. I don't. But who's right? We'll know one day, maybe you'll bump into Chamberlain, smiling and forgiven by the Allmighty One. How arrogant to think he needs us to bring people to justice, anyway.

What the Jews did to Jesus, you do to civilians every week. Yet you refer to God. How contradictive.

Black Star.

And for those amongst youwho are interested, then it all kicked off. The shortcut can be found on top of this thread.

Anyway, I hope I will find some understanding and acceptance here.
They for their part consider me as a scumpal (penpal), an anti , a Euroweener etc...
I am not, but I must say, if I was 80% anti, I think I am 95% anti now. My Gosh, some of them there really lost the plot. The older, the worse they get. That Grandmother is really an old redneck Cowgirl I reckon.
Luckily the admins are (for now) tolerant.

This isue really gets me. Hey friends, because of me, they opened an "Innocence issue" topic! ;D Can you believe? They hadn't even considered it ever!

It takes guts to express your opinion there amongst all those radical, bitter souls... It's only a matter of time, and I ll be banned though.

Black Star

[briseis]

Interesting thoughts. Unfortunately, if you are not 100% Pro, you are more than likely going to be disrespected and unwelcome on the Pro boards in my experience. Most Antis have been on those Pro boards including myself, and I have been subject to much abuse simply because of my views on the death penalty. And yes, most Pros seem to take enjoyment in executions, and yet at the same time condemn convicts for murdering. It's hypocritical and disturbing ...

I'm not a moderator of this board, but I'd like to think Pros are welcome here, and indeed fence-sitters for some amicable discussion. More often, Pros joins sites like these for the sole purpose to be banned, so they can brag about it to their mates on the Pro boards.

I'm 100% Anti, a fellow European, I'm 24-years-old, surrounded by family and friends. I have a 10-month-old son and am engaged to be married. So your suggestion that Penpals are loners doesn't ring true, as I have a Penpal on Death Row. He is an elderly inmate who faces execution soon. I write to him for his sake, not mine.

I feel my writing to him brings grace and compassion to his lonely and cruel world. I feel it makes better sense to bring love and light to a lonely soul, than to count the days down till another mother loses her son or daughter. I guess you could say us Antis have a sense of social conscience which forbids us from wishing ANYONE dead.

I believe in Life Imprisonment in cases of murder ... I believe in justice, but I do not believe anyone should have the right to take another human being's life. We are not worthy enough to judge each other so terribly, and even if we were, the Death Penalty is NOT a deterrent and I doubt it eases the pain the MVS feel; it just tells the world that it is ok to kill, and entertains clans of bloodthirsty Pros as they get excited over execution dates ... without thought or respect for the families and friends of the convicts who are going through Hell.

Regardless of your view on the death Penalty, as far as I'm concerned, you are very welcome here.

[godhasitdown]

Boy you got that right. It doesn't matter if your an attorney, a PI, anything to defend a client, if your not pro-death penality, you are scum. Although maybe a wealthy one LOL...... Those people need to realize the verse in the Bible about the death sentence. In order for the punishment to be death, there has to be at LEAST two eye wittnesses. Those people have a lot of nerve. I wonder if they sleep at night. I can't see how they can live with themselves. They are the biggest cold blooded killers on Earth. They want everyone dead. They don't care about facts or innocence. They are extremely mentally dirranged people. I don't hate them. I feel very sorry that they will be in a position down the road where they are going to be crying and begging for forgiveness. AND it will be too late!

[godhasitdown]

I think that everyone involved in an execution all the way from the arresting officer to the plunger pusher should be killed on the day of that execution. That would wake some people up. I mean this in a hypothetical way. I really don't feel anyone has the right to kill another at all EVER. Pro-death penality people are way way worse that the worst serial killer in the world. THEY don't have one bit of remorse. They get off on watching someone die. Now what kind of sense does that make really? They will get theirs...... God doesn't make mistakes.

[godhasitdown]

Oh yeah.... AND there are a lot more of US than there are them in this world. That would scare the heck out of me if I took their attitude. ;-)

[debaser42]

I was reading this forum and was increasingly disturbed by the accusations of some people.
(1. I am for the death penalty and in no way "get off" on watching people die.
(2. i was also suprised to be called worse than the worse serial killer, im sorry but in my opinion im no worse than the man who raped and killed two teenage girls.
(3.i was also disturbed by the lack of sympathy for the victims. These people didn't make some little mistake, they ended someones life and in doing so lost their right to live. Where are the people crying for the victims.
(4. and finally to the guy who said everybody who is involved in the execution should die, seems a little hypocritical.but i guess it makes since, kill the cop save the criminal. yeah that seems right
well thats all i have to say and i hope some of you "anti's" realize not all pro CP people are the same.

[happyhaddock]

Aug 4, 2008 13:19:24 GMT -5 debaser42 said:

(3.i was also disturbed by the lack of sympathy for the victims. These people didn't make some little mistake, they ended someones life and in doing so lost their right to live. Where are the people crying for the victims.

You are mistaken. Most people, IMO, who oppose the DP would kill the perpetrator during the crime to protect the victims. However there is no good reason to kill that person after the event. All arguments to the contrary fail.
For example: a husband kills his wife. If you now kill the husband all of the children become orphans. Why is this your choice, not theirs?

[debaser42]

that man who killed his wife is the one that orphaned the children because DP or not they would be raised without their father.
At best that man is a burden on society and at worst a danger to it.
And while you're talking about whose choice it is how bout the families of the victims, they deserve some justice, those murdering rapist have lost their right to rejoin society, and they should no longer be a burden on it.

[justme]

This whole thread is absolutely absurd.

[godhasitdown]

When an execution is in action the state breaks every law that there is. They are pre-meditating a murder all the way from day one. I don't think that the arresting officer should be involved, that was a mistake. JUST the people that have direct involvement with the execution. If it is not pre-meditated murder, kidnapping, forcing a prisoner to die etc. etc. etc. I don't know what else to call it. Oh that's right, it is OK to kill someone when you are in authority right? Yeah after all that is why there are so many dying in Iraq. I get it. It is not OK for someone to commit murder but it IS OK for the state to do a PRE-MEDITATED MURDER. Tit for Tat. Sorry but I am stuck on this and I am not budging. I am anti all the way..... I wish no-one to die but I don't feel ANYONE has the right to take life. Two wrongs do NOT make a right. It is revenge and revenge alone IMO......

Aug 4, 2008 13:19:24 GMT -5 debaser42 said:

I was reading this forum and was increasingly disturbed by the accusations of some people.
(1. I am for the death penalty and in no way "get off" on watching people die.
(2. i was also suprised to be called worse than the worse serial killer, im sorry but in my opinion im no worse than the man who raped and killed two teenage girls.
(3.i was also disturbed by the lack of sympathy for the victims. These people didn't make some little mistake, they ended someones life and in doing so lost their right to live. Where are the people crying for the victims.
(4. and finally to the guy who said everybody who is involved in the execution should die, seems a little hypocritical.but i guess it makes since, kill the cop save the criminal. yeah that seems right
well thats all i have to say and i hope some of you "anti's" realize not all pro CP people are the same.

[justme]

godhasitdown...I understand that you think an execution is morally wrong. But an execution does not "break every law that there is". An execution enforces laws on the books. You may not like the law, that is certainly your right. But no one involved in an execution is breaking any law, from a legal perspective.

[godhasitdown]

Right in the world and in mans law that is true. In Gods law it is false. I wonder if people know that they are paying hundreds of billions of dollars for these cases. That is money that could go to prevention. Those guys on death row, are not going anywhere whether it is death row or GP. I know a case I am very close to that has so far cost 6 million dollars and we have never made it past auto direct review. Step ONE out of TEN. This next time around, it will be the 5th death sentence OR life. It is wrong to murder. Period. I guess Charles Manson should be out because well he didn't kill anyone now did he. He just was convicted cause a bunch of drunken drugged up kids said that he was involved. Now that is hard evidence LOL! Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh.

Aug 4, 2008 20:36:18 GMT -5 justme said:

godhasitdown...I understand that you think an execution is morally wrong. But an execution does not "break every law that there is". An execution enforces laws on the books. You may not like the law, that is certainly your right. But no one involved in an execution is breaking any law, from a legal perspective.

[debaser42]

Aug 4, 2008 20:21:28 GMT -5 godhasitdown said:

When an execution is in action the state breaks every law that there is. They are pre-meditating a murder all the way from day one. I don't think that the arresting officer should be involved, that was a mistake. JUST the people that have direct involvement with the execution. If it is not pre-meditated murder, kidnapping, forcing a prisoner to die etc. etc. etc. I don't know what else to call it. Oh that's right, it is OK to kill someone when you are in authority right? Yeah after all that is why there are so many dying in Iraq. I get it. It is not OK for someone to commit murder but it IS OK for the state to do a PRE-MEDITATED MURDER. Tit for Tat. Sorry but I am stuck on this and I am not budging. I am anti all the way..... I wish no-one to die but I don't feel ANYONE has the right to take life. Two wrongs do NOT make a right. It is revenge and revenge alone IMO......

---

There is a line between revenge and punishment. The criminal should be punished because he deserves to be punished, and to not punish him in the fullest is an insult to the victim and our society. The right to life is forfeited by those who would take it.
In J.J. Rousseau's The Social Contract written in 1762, he says the following:
Again, every rogue who criminously attacks social rights becomes, by his wrong, a rebel and a traitor to his fatherland. By contravening its laws, he ceases to be one of its citizens: he even wages war against it. In such circumstances, the State and he cannot both be saved: one or the other must perish. In killing the criminal, we destroy not so much a citizen as an enemy. The trial and judgements are proofs that he has broken the Social Contract, and so is no longer a member of the State.

[godhasitdown]

Well you can feel the way you want to. I answer to one person. The one that REALLY counts. Man is not going to get me to heaven. I am not full of hate and I don't like seeing Tit for Tat. What about the killers families? They should suffer too? Oh of course they should. They are involved and support someone that was drunk or drugged up and made some poor choices.

Aug 4, 2008 23:24:10 GMT -5 debaser42 said:

There is a line between revenge and punishment. The criminal should be punished because he deserves to be punished, and to not punish him in the fullest is an insult to the victim and our society. The right to life is forfeited by those who would take it.
In J.J. Rousseau's The Social Contract written in 1762, he says the following:
Again, every rogue who criminously attacks social rights becomes, by his wrong, a rebel and a traitor to his fatherland. By contravening its laws, he ceases to be one of its citizens: he even wages war against it. In such circumstances, the State and he cannot both be saved: one or the other must perish. In killing the criminal, we destroy not so much a citizen as an enemy. The trial and judgements are proofs that he has broken the Social Contract, and so is no longer a member of the State.

[happyhaddock]

Aug 4, 2008 23:24:10 GMT -5 debaser42 said:

There is a line between revenge and punishment. The criminal should be punished because he deserves to be punished, and to not punish him in the fullest is an insult to the victim and our society. The right to life is forfeited by those who would take it.
In J.J. Rousseau's The Social Contract written in 1762, he says the following:
Again, every rogue who criminously attacks social rights becomes, by his wrong, a rebel and a traitor to his fatherland. By contravening its laws, he ceases to be one of its citizens: he even wages war against it. In such circumstances, the State and he cannot both be saved: one or the other must perish. In killing the criminal, we destroy not so much a citizen as an enemy. The trial and judgements are proofs that he has broken the Social Contract, and so is no longer a member of the State.

We aren't living in 1762. In those days, evidence consisted of witnesses alone and little else. Now we are relying on experts who all too often favor the prosecution while pretending to be neutral. We are interpreting this, and analysing that. What we do know is that humans are incapable of perfect judgment. Far too many people were put on death row with evidence we now know was faulty. It is time for the USA to grow up and join the civilized world and end this practice, driven as it is by hatred alone.