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Post by truth1 on Jun 14, 2005 12:53:35 GMT -5
Truth, I maintain my position. the preponderance of murder among the socially, economically, and intellectually disadvantaged is, by far, higher higher than the "average" in society. Yes, there's subsidized housing and 'programmes' available. When one, however, fights for basic survival on a daily basis, is it realistic to expect that self will always prevails? Not all of us is equipped to apply that idealistic, gritty determination. As for professional assassins, I honestly don't know what percentage of the DR population they represent. Nonetheless, it behooves us to take the moral high ground. There's no avoiding the fact that by taking any human life (i.e. the State, of which we are part), we have blood on our hands. Life really isn't as simple, as Ela has pointed out, as taking advantage of 'opportunity' is not as simplistic as it may seem. Once again, truth, it's just all about vengeance. Of course it is vengeance. We are inflicting punishment because someone did wrong. That is correct. A speeding ticket can also be seen as vengeance. But, I get your point. Life is not simple--but, regardless of an individual's life history, there is no reason people cannot act civilized.
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Post by ela on Jun 14, 2005 13:43:18 GMT -5
Too bad that this is not individual's life history... this is life of at least 95% of people on DR... If you put all together background + life conditions + resources + opportunities + of course, personal tendences = people who live on the borders. And people who live on the borders commit crimes. The point is that we look only at the consequences and not at causes. Of course who commit crimes must bu punished. Death penalty can be considered a punishment only as an act of revenge. Why? Becouse it doesn't work on causes, but it works only on consequences, that are crimes. Applying death penalty they can feel better becouse they show to citizens that they're able to eliminate all what nobody want to see. However, the cycle will start again from the beginning and there will always be people who end commit crimes. Me personally, I think that pusihment should rehabilitate, not eliminate. Always my personal opinion of course.
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Post by mikebook on Jun 14, 2005 14:34:03 GMT -5
That is what my cousin does as an expert witness...he pulls together all the things in the lives of death row inmates and tells appeals boards and stuff how things happened...It was very interesting when he told us what he was doing...But I could never do that.
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Post by janet on Jun 14, 2005 16:10:58 GMT -5
Ela, I agree. The goal of punishent is to rehabilitate, not deprive an individual of their life. Who knows what course that life might take?
Once, Nelson Mandala, was seen as a murderer. Who among us does not admire this man as an exemplary human being?
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Post by truth1 on Jun 14, 2005 16:18:29 GMT -5
Too bad that this is not individual's life history... this is life of at least 95% of people on DR... If you put all together background + life conditions + resources + opportunities + of course, personal tendences = people who live on the borders. And people who live on the borders commit crimes. The point is that we look only at the consequences and not at causes. Of course who commit crimes must bu punished. Death penalty can be considered a punishment only as an act of revenge. Why? Becouse it doesn't work on causes, but it works only on consequences, that are crimes. Applying death penalty they can feel better becouse they show to citizens that they're able to eliminate all what nobody want to see. However, the cycle will start again from the beginning and there will always be people who end commit crimes. Me personally, I think that pusihment should rehabilitate, not eliminate. Always my personal opinion of course. That's what I meant by an individual. I was talking about everyone on death row. My point is: no matter how sh*tty someone's life is, no matter how traumatic their childhood was--they can control their actions. This is especially true for the people on death row that robbed someone and then murdered them. There is absolutely no justification for that. I mean, what would be the argument? "My dad would beat me and call me names, so, I think I will go out and rob and kill someone".
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Post by ela on Jun 14, 2005 16:32:27 GMT -5
well, first of all when someone is on drugs and he aven has the chance to easily get a gun in his hands... well.. the line between robbery and murder is way too thin to be kept under control... The point is that you belive that it's a free choice the one to go and robber, or the one to go and become drugs abuser, or even the one to DECIDE to change life when your background was so terrible... I just think that sometimes when you deal to the borders you really are not able to go out from there, you are not able, not you don't want.. becouse that is the ony life you know, and becouse it's too late to get other opportunities... They don't go to robber and say " I do it becouse my dad used to beat me"... It may be that just that background can cause ( as I've already told you) so many chroinc damages into someone's life, that it's not your personal choice that makes the difference. I've never seen a person in my life wake up in the morning and say: "what can i do today?? Well.. let's go robber or doing drugs"... and I assure you.. I see em everyday...for many years....Now.. or they are all stupid to keep going on with such a style of life or there must be other reasons... I am sure they are not all stupid, and I am sure that often, the changing, doesn't depend completely on their personal choices...
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Post by truth1 on Jun 15, 2005 7:51:23 GMT -5
well, first of all when someone is on drugs and he aven has the chance to easily get a gun in his hands... well.. the line between robbery and murder is way too thin to be kept under control... The point is that you belive that it's a free choice the one to go and robber, or the one to go and become drugs abuser, or even the one to DECIDE to change life when your background was so terrible... I just think that sometimes when you deal to the borders you really are not able to go out from there, you are not able, not you don't want.. becouse that is the ony life you know, and becouse it's too late to get other opportunities... They don't go to robber and say " I do it becouse my dad used to beat me"... It may be that just that background can cause ( as I've already told you) so many chroinc damages into someone's life, that it's not your personal choice that makes the difference. I've never seen a person in my life wake up in the morning and say: "what can i do today?? Well.. let's go robber or doing drugs"... and I assure you.. I see em everyday...for many years....Now.. or they are all stupid to keep going on with such a style of life or there must be other reasons... I am sure they are not all stupid, and I am sure that often, the changing, doesn't depend completely on their personal choices... Being on drugs is not an excuse. Just because they were high does not mean they are not responsible for their actions. EVERYONE has a choice--regardless of their background. They know what is right and wrong. Robbing someone is a deplorable crime. People that work hard for a living are having their money taken away at gunpoint by people that are either too lazy to work, or by people with expensive drug habits. Either way, they are dregs of society. Do you honestly think they care if the person they rob cannot feed his family until he receives his next paycheck? They are selfish people. That is why if they murder someone during the commission of a robbery, I think they deserve to be put to death.
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Post by moghirl on Jun 15, 2005 8:26:58 GMT -5
...And what about people on death row who are not robbers. My friend's on death row for what would be classed as a domestic here in the UK and there are probably many more cases like this one in the States. Pat went along with 2 mates, one whose sister was being abused, beaten regularly and hospitalized by her boyfriend.The police were called on occasions. Things got way out of hand and the boyfriend and his roommate were tragically murdered. One of the guys that was with Pat was 20 years older than all the others and he testified against him to escape the death penalty. In cases where there are co-defendants, the State can always use this tactic of breaking down the weakest link and get them to say what they are told in court to save their own skin. This is enough for reasonable doubt, in my opinion.
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Post by truth1 on Jun 15, 2005 8:56:51 GMT -5
...And what about people on death row who are not robbers. My friend's on death row for what would be classed as a domestic here in the UK and there are probably many more cases like this one in the States. Pat went along with 2 mates, one whose sister was being abused, beaten regularly and hospitalized by her boyfriend.The police were called on occasions. Things got way out of hand and the boyfriend and his roommate were tragically murdered. One of the guys that was with Pat was 20 years older than all the others and he testified against him to escape the death penalty. In cases where there are co-defendants, the State can always use this tactic of breaking down the weakest link and get them to say what they are told in court to save their own skin. This is enough for reasonable doubt, in my opinion. I am not sure if I understand what you are talking about. Can you explain what happened again, please?
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Post by ela on Jun 15, 2005 9:08:13 GMT -5
Hey Truth... I give up... we will never find a point in common if you go on talking about free choices and i go on talking about people who are not able to take free choices... Go on thinking they do what they do becouse the like acting like that, I will go on thinking that most of time they're forced by circumnstances. Go on considering them dregs, I will go on considering them people in need of help. Go on thinking they must die, I will go on thinking they must be rehabilitated. Go on thinking they don't deserve anything but death, I will go on thinking they deserve a life exaclty like all the rest of us. Thank you to take a chance to talk with me anyway, it's always positive trying to share something. You know, you have my respect... hugs
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Post by truth1 on Jun 15, 2005 10:10:14 GMT -5
Hey Truth... I give up... we will never find a point in common if you go on talking about free choices and i go on talking about people who are not able to take free choices... Go on thinking they do what they do becouse the like acting like that, I will go on thinking that most of time they're forced by circumnstances. Go on considering them dregs, I will go on considering them people in need of help. Go on thinking they must die, I will go on thinking they must be rehabilitated. Go on thinking they don't deserve anything but death, I will go on thinking they deserve a life exaclty like all the rest of us. Thank you to take a chance to talk with me anyway, it's always positive trying to share something. You know, you have my respect... hugs Ela, you have my respect as well. I hope this does not mean you will not talk to me again . I hope to hear from you soon.
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Post by ela on Jun 15, 2005 11:51:30 GMT -5
Of course I will talk to you!! Why shouldn't I? ?
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Post by ela on Jun 16, 2005 6:52:54 GMT -5
But... just one more question truth... if you don't mind to answer... I see you have very strong opinions about those people we are talking about... But, I was wondering.. te be so sure about why they act like that... and to be so sure about the fact that they do not deserve forgivness and that they act like that becouse they like to act like that.. I was just wondering.. did you ever met one of them? Did you ever get to know someone who live on the borders and who act illegaly becouse of this? Did you ever try to look over actions and try to understand what is behind? have you ever seen what those people have inside, and how much they can be damaged from their background? I don't mean what you read in newspapers.. I mean if you personally know someone.. I mean... If you ever talked to anyone of them and try to listen what he/she has to say....
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Post by truth1 on Jun 16, 2005 7:21:40 GMT -5
But... just one more question truth... if you don't mind to answer... I see you have very strong opinions about those people we are talking about... But, I was wondering.. te be so sure about why they act like that... and to be so sure about the fact that they do not deserve forgivness and that they act like that becouse they like to act like that.. I was just wondering.. did you ever met one of them? Did you ever get to know someone who live on the borders and who act illegaly becouse of this? Did you ever try to look over actions and try to understand what is behind? have you ever seen what those people have inside, and how much they can be damaged from their background? I don't mean what you read in newspapers.. I mean if you personally know someone.. I mean... If you ever talked to anyone of them and try to listen what he/she has to say.... I personally do not know anyone in the situation you had described. I have ofthen wondered what would cause people to act out the way they do. I often wonder about their childhood. However, I never thought it was an excuse. I have always felt that most of them knew right from wrong. Because of that, they deserve the sentence imposed. They may have had a horrible childhood, but the fact that they had a weak superego is the reason they are on death row.
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Post by ela on Jun 16, 2005 7:58:39 GMT -5
Of course they are weak. Someone is wrong, someone is weak... I think it's not a fault... Well.. who doesn't have any weakness in life? I guess you have your owns too, the same as me, and I also guess you like to be respected also with your weaknesses.. well.. everybody like to be respected even if is weak... However I would reccomend you to try. try to stay in the middle of what you call DREG... for a while... you might be surprised...about who is the real DREG. ( I am using your word "dreg", but it's not my style... I mean... I truly think nobody is a dreg... everyone has his reasons... I am sure even Predsident Bush has his owns.. I try to feel compassion... in those cases....) I hope you will have this chance in your life, the chance to get to know what you think to know so good. I am pretty sure you would change your point. Well, never say never.... kisssss
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