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Post by ela on Jun 11, 2005 5:45:36 GMT -5
We just think different way then. No problem.
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Post by truth1 on Jun 11, 2005 5:51:07 GMT -5
I apologize for this rather quick addition. I simply felt so outraged and rather curious that anyone could defend the death penalty. It has been proven statistically that the death penalty does not decrease the murder rate in those states that maintain it. It is not cost efficient to murder an individual. As harsh as this may sound, it does not bring back the victim(s). It, rather, perpetuates the cycle of violence by the premeditated murder by the state of a human being. It has absolutely no benefit, other than vengeance, to society as a whole. As for the word that has become the 'flavour of the day', it does not bring 'closure'. With the death of a family member or friend, all that brings about 'closure' is the passage of time, i.e., the 'normal' mourning process. There is no logical reason for supporting the death penalty. It is a purely vindictive, emotional reaction to a tragic circumstance. The death penalty could be a deterrent. But it is definitely punishment. Plain and simple. If the people on death row were not smart enough to heed the warning, then they deserve their punishment. I kind of look at it like an irritated rattlesnake. The tail is rattling--giving you plenty of advance notice of its intentions. And, by the way, I have provided data supporting the the conclusion that in the long run, it IS more cost effective to execute than it is to sentence them to LWOP. LOOK IT UP! "The death penalty is a warning, just like a lighthouse throwing its beams out to sea. We hear about shipwrecks, but we do not hear about the ships the lighthouse guides safely on their way. We do not have proof of the number of ships it saves, but we do not tear the lighthouse down." - poet Hyman Barshay
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Post by janet on Jun 11, 2005 12:21:19 GMT -5
The DP is NOT a deterrent. During the ten year moratorium on the death penalty there ws an average of 440 inmates on death row states. Since its reintroduction that population has increased to 3,487 in 2002 (U.S. Justice Department Bureau of Statistics).
I defend that LWP is more cost efficient than the death penalty. I have looked it up, thanks. The cost of post-conviction appeals in DP cases is extraordinarily high. Conversely, LWP, bearing in mind the subsistence level at which 'guests of the State' are housed and fed, etc., is at a level which few of us could endure.
The oppression of those members of society who are the most weak, vulnerable, and lacking in resources are those who are proscribed the DP. A society who executes its citizens implicitly is a society which admits its inability to solve its social problems.
An Administration that purports to value the sanctity of human life, i.e., pro-life and the fight to save the life of Terri Schaivo, support for DP is rather paradoxical. In fact, in the words of President George Bush, "it is better to err on the side of life".
Thus, we're right back to socially sanctioned revenge.
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Post by ela on Jun 11, 2005 18:02:55 GMT -5
Yeah, right. Were they more human when they were robbing, shooting and beating people to death? Were they better citizens than the people that would get up at 4 in the morning to go to work on a Saturday while they were getting drunk and using drugs? [/quote]
people who abuse drugs, are called "drugs abusers".. it means that they depend on drugs... Do you know what the word dependance means? Do you know all what is behind someone who become dependent from drugs? In all my life I've never met a person who wake up in the morning and says: " ohhh.. what can I do today? I want to start using drusg or getting drunk..." You have no idea of what you are talkjng about.. believe me... If you are referring to people who abuse alcohol and drugs you really have no idea of what you are talking about....
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Post by truth1 on Jun 13, 2005 12:58:39 GMT -5
The DP is NOT a deterrent. During the ten year moratorium on the death penalty there ws an average of 440 inmates on death row states. Since its reintroduction that population has increased to 3,487 in 2002 (U.S. Justice Department Bureau of Statistics). I defend that LWP is more cost efficient than the death penalty. I have looked it up, thanks. The cost of post-conviction appeals in DP cases is extraordinarily high. Conversely, LWP, bearing in mind the subsistence level at which 'guests of the State' are housed and fed, etc., is at a level which few of us could endure. The oppression of those members of society who are the most weak, vulnerable, and lacking in resources are those who are proscribed the DP. A society who executes its citizens implicitly is a society which admits its inability to solve its social problems. An Administration that purports to value the sanctity of human life, i.e., pro-life and the fight to save the life of Terri Schaivo, support for DP is rather paradoxical. In fact, in the words of President George Bush, "it is better to err on the side of life". Thus, we're right back to socially sanctioned revenge. Janet, First of all, how do you know the death penalty is not a deterrent? We only know that for the number of people on death row, the death penalty was not a deterrent for them. But what about the people that would have killed if there was no death penalty? We do not know, and could not accurately approximate that number. The death penalty is obviously a deterrent for some people. Take for example people that hire hitmen. They know the consequences if they get caught. So, they try to hire a professional. Why do you think they pay thousands and thousands of dollars to have someone killed when they could do it themselves for free? I have also looked up the cost of execution vs. LWOP. I have found that LWOP is cheaper--in the beginning. However, after approximately 20 years, the death penalty is less expensive. And, do not use social oppression as justification for their actions. In high school I have seen many kids that lived in government subsidized housing projects where the family only pays $20/month, turn out ok and go to college. That is a ridiculous argument. Everyone has problems. Do you think they have more problems than other people that have to work 55+ hours just to make their mortgage payment. Everyone has problems. Just because they had a hard childhood, or lived in poverty, or dropped out of high school when they were 15 does not lessen the severity of their actions.
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Post by ela on Jun 13, 2005 13:08:22 GMT -5
Everyone has problems, it's true. Well, someone more...someone less... But it is also true that not everyone react the same way to the same problem... and when someone is not able to face these problems.. well.. too bad... do we have to kill em? However it's testified that background counts a lot... on everybody's life.. and about people who end to commit crimes... it's not a dream... they have at least at 95% the same kind of background.. I think it must be considered, of course not as an excuse, but just to try to understand what's the bast way to face with this people. And kill them it's not the best way... I think...
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Post by truth1 on Jun 13, 2005 13:21:20 GMT -5
Everyone has problems, it's true. Well, someone more...someone less... But it is also true that not everyone react the same way to the same problem... and when someone is not able to face these problems.. well.. too bad... do we have to kill em? However it's testified that background counts a lot... on everybody's life.. and about people who end to commit crimes... it's not a dream... they have at least at 95% the same kind of background.. I think it must be considered, of course not as an excuse, but just to try to understand what's the bast way to face with this people. And kill them it's not the best way... I think... There are plenty of programs out there to help people if they wanted it. They can get a GED. They can get grants to go to college for free. I owe somewhere in the neighborhood of $30,000 for college (loans). They can go for free. There are plenty of opportunities for people that are "less fortunate". But, they continue to keep themselves down. If they are poor, they can excel in high school and get scholarships to excellent schools.
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Post by ela on Jun 13, 2005 13:24:12 GMT -5
I didn't say... if they WANT... I've said if THEY ARE ABLE.
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Post by ela on Jun 13, 2005 13:29:24 GMT -5
Do you really think that all the times, changing life, changing all what you want.. really depends only on personal will? I can demonstrate you with my personal experience, that most of the times, we are in front of so hard damages that "will" is noth enough. Probably nothing will be enough in some cases. We just should ask ourselves whi it happens, and how to prevent it before it's too late. it's only my personal experience, of course, but this is what I see. And honestly they are guilty, but all what is around them is guilty as well, at least at 50%.
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Post by truth1 on Jun 13, 2005 14:57:48 GMT -5
Do you really think that all the times, changing life, changing all what you want.. really depends only on personal will? I can demonstrate you with my personal experience, that most of the times, we are in front of so hard damages that "will" is noth enough. Probably nothing will be enough in some cases. We just should ask ourselves whi it happens, and how to prevent it before it's too late. it's only my personal experience, of course, but this is what I see. And honestly they are guilty, but all what is around them is guilty as well, at least at 50%. I see alot of people that just go with the motion. They do not strive. They have no goals. Life can be pretty hard, but, murder is never an acceptable outcome. I think everybody knows someone that gets home from working a job they hate, and then drinks a case of beer or smokes some pot. Instead of doing that, they could take some classes or go to night school. There are plenty of opportunities for those that want them.
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Post by ela on Jun 13, 2005 15:06:18 GMT -5
This is absolutely true if, again, you think, that all depends on personal will. I just think that if you're so messed up to commit hard crimes, there must be something else than simply what you want or what you don't want to do. I mean, I am sure that these people are human beings, thy are just like me, but they have something wrong.. somewhere... it's not only ( and I say only) what they decide to do.. to decide in freedom, you must be free; where there is pain, there is no freedom. I've been lucky in my life, and someone teached me how to face life. I don't know who I would have become if I had not had what I have had.. around me.. Someone really have not the chance to go to school.. even if it's free, or cheap... school here is all free, even university... I know so many people who had not the chance to attend it... and I wonder.. why?? who had to care about this people ? And yes, school is important.. but it's not a guaranty... I just look at my President... ahahah....
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Post by ela on Jun 13, 2005 15:14:28 GMT -5
And hey.. I am not talking about that people who come back home and drink after a full day of a job that they hate.. I am talking about that people who, maybe, have never had a home... I am talking about the real background.. I mean.. what you have around wheneyou were born.. and that is not your fault... sh*t you were born there, and from there you must learn to live... Someone can handle it, someone else just loose the way... or will never find it.. or nobody will teach it... I don't know... but I just don't like it. I wish we all could have the same resources in life.. But it doesn't work like this...
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Post by CCADP on Jun 13, 2005 15:16:29 GMT -5
Ela i was just re-reading this thread and your opening post is so funny it had me laughing out loud "will make a good chocolate cake" "remember he is a murderer"
ha ha ! Its funny; cause its true!
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Post by ela on Jun 13, 2005 15:23:36 GMT -5
Ela i was just re-reading this thread and your opening post is so funny it had me laughing out loud "will make a good chocolate cake" "remember he is a murderer" ha ha ! Its funny; cause its true! yeah.. I mean... it was kinda of obsession.... you can say what you want but the answer is always the same.. ;D
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Post by janet on Jun 14, 2005 10:26:15 GMT -5
Truth,
I maintain my position. the preponderance of murder among the socially, economically, and intellectually disadvantaged is, by far, higher higher than the "average" in society. Yes, there's subsidized housing and 'programmes' available. When one, however, fights for basic survival on a daily basis, is it realistic to expect that self will always prevails? Not all of us is equipped to apply that idealistic, gritty determination.
As for professional assassins, I honestly don't know what percentage of the DR population they represent. Nonetheless, it behooves us to take the moral high ground. There's no avoiding the fact that by taking any human life (i.e. the State, of which we are part), we have blood on our hands.
Life really isn't as simple, as Ela has pointed out, as taking advantage of 'opportunity' is not as simplistic as it may seem.
Once again, truth, it's just all about vengeance.
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