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Post by judywaits4u on Oct 26, 2005 15:52:30 GMT -5
The first thing you have to look at is not whether CP exists or not but at crime rates in general, if there was a huge rise in crime but no rise in murder, then you may be able to say that CP deters Murder if the rate is then lower in CP States to Non-CP States: However the murder rate has never been lower in a State that carries out CP in comparison to States that do not have CP.
Best wishes, Judy
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Post by judywaits4u on Oct 26, 2005 17:44:02 GMT -5
I can't agree that in germany the murder rates are rising. I would rather look at the homepage of the german "Innenministerium" as the official site for criminal statistics, and not some blog somewhere: www.bmi.bund.de/cln_012/nn_122688/Internet/Content/Nachrichten/Pressemitteilungen/2005/06/Polizeiliche__Kriminalstatistik__2004.htmlThis article (which I could not find in english) says that 2004 the violent crimes, esp. murder and manslaughter have decreased since 2003. And the crimes altogether have decreased since 1993. In 1993 there were 120.000 more cases than 2004. The population has grown since 1993 about 1 million. In 1993, 43% of the recorded crimes were cleared up. in 2004, 54% of the crimes were cleared up. More people commit less crimes - That is a decrease. I qoute the article: "Fortgesetzt hat sich auch im Jahr 2004 der erfreulich kontinuierliche Rückgang bei Mord und Totschlag. Gegenüber 2003 sind die Zahlen hier nochmals um 2,4 % auf jetzt 2.480 Delikte gesunken. Seit 1999 beträgt der Rückgang sogar mehr als 13 %. " Translation: In the year 2004 the number of murder and manslaughter have again decreased. Compared to 2003, there were 2.480 cases which is a decrease about 2,4%. compared to 1999 there is a decrease of 13%. Violent crimes committed in Germany by juveniles are rising at an alarming rate, especially violent sex crimes. According to German law juveniles, age 19 and under, can't be sentenced to more then 10 years for their crimes. Offenders under the age of 14 are exempt from all criminal prosecution. The problem is that what is an alarming rate? If such crime doubled in Germany, it would still probably be less than in the USA. Look at it another way: If the murder rate in Texas is 9:100,000 and is cut in half. The the murder rate in England is 1.4:100,000 and it doubles. Then the result is that though there would be a dramatic increase in the murder rate in England, it would still be only two thirds of what it is in Texas. Love and hugs, Judy
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Post by distel on Oct 27, 2005 4:41:55 GMT -5
Violent crimes committed in Germany by juveniles are rising at an alarming rate, especially violent sex crimes. hello miss spearmint, I don't find any evidence for this on the german official website for criminal statistics. In an article about how Otto Schily views the situation, found here, I read that there was indeed a rise in violent crimes, also in violent sex crimes. The background is that germany has had a large discussion about violence at home and violent crimes and passed a new law to protect from violence, the "Gewaltschutzgesetz" in 2002. Otto Schily thinks that because of this, more violent crimes were reported to the police, which otherwise would have remained unreported. He doesn't think that violent crimes are really on the rise, but that more of them become known now. Nearly all other crimes, like murder and manslaughter have decreased. And the statistic says that the number of juvenile suspects is again decreasing, not increasing. I know that here the news and the media like to spread an image of ever more violent youth and young people totally out of control. That may create an impression that juveniles are committing more crimes than before. But this is not the case, I think now, after I searched through the stats. And you must take into account that there was a big rise in computer criminality since last year (+ 12,2 %), like downloading illegal mp3 files and movies. And the younger people are much more in this scene than older people.. And they have also passed a new law which is stricter on owning guns, and they have increased controls in this matter, so in 2004 for example, illegal possession of guns increased since last year. I too, think that it can't be proven that DP deters murder. For germany I do not think that there should be stricter punishments suggested by the law in general. If there is a mistake here, I think that the courts are too mild when they could have been more strict, for expample child molesting inside the family. If a stranger is molesting or raping a child, the punishment will be quite strict most of the time, but if a father or an uncle commits the crime, they often get away with less punishment. Maybe because the judges think that the family is something like a holy institution and do not believe the victim. But that is no reason in my opinion to change the law. Greets Distel
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Post by johnny61 on Oct 27, 2005 23:27:50 GMT -5
"All the men and women whom I have faced at that final moment convince me that in what I have done, I have not prevented a single murder. I do not now believe that any one of the hundreds of executions I carried out has in any way acted as a deterrent against future murder. Capital punishment, in my view, achieved nothing except revenge."
Albert Pierrepoint - Britain's hangman for 25 years (a quote from his autobiography)
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Post by judywaits4u on Oct 30, 2005 7:40:14 GMT -5
This is what that site says about CP Capital Punishment is Murder by Anti-Death Penalty Friday, Jun. 21, 2002 at 2:24 AM Any lunatic who tries to promote the death penalty in the 21st Century is obviously criminally insane. All of Europe has banned the death penalty. Only the backward nations of the world continue to use the death penalty on a regular basis. The United States is the most backward country in the industrialized world with the lowest life expectancy and highest infant mortality, as well as the weakest labor movement in the industrialized world. It is because labor is weak that the death penalty continues to exist. The death penalty is first and foremost a class weapon of torture against the workingclass. It is also racist, not a deterent, does not restore victims, kills the innocent, teaches violence, is a human rights abuse, is murder and is dead wrong. The death penalty, whether by lethal injection, beheading, gas, electrocution, shooting, burning at the stake, or nailing to a cross, is a barbarism that must finally be cast into the dustbin of history if humanity is to move forward. The death penalty is opposed by socialists and liberals. It is promoted by fascists and opportunist capitalist politicians who only care about their own lives, that is, their careers. It is time the voters finally reject all politicians who support the death penalty, whether they be Democrats or Republicans. The top of your litmus test list for all politicians must be opposition to the death penalty. You will be part of a growing movement in this labor era that will certainly put an end to the death penalty forever. There are many websites that provide information you can use to teach everyone to never support the death penalty and never, ever vote for anyone supports the death penalty: sf.indymedia.org/news/2002/06/133928.php
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Post by distel on Oct 30, 2005 10:29:17 GMT -5
I'm just reading an interesting article about different methods of research and different results: www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=1176@spearmint: indymedia is a news website where everyone can publish article, so the original article need not have more quality than someone's comment to it, and what you criticize about the comment is also true for the article itself.
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Post by judywaits4u on Oct 30, 2005 10:37:09 GMT -5
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Post by dio on Oct 31, 2005 21:38:21 GMT -5
Bust the budget? Based upon the figure of $86.00 per execution I see no reason to think there would entail any noticeable strain....actually I am more than willing to foot the bill for 1 execution per month.$86.00 spent on JUSTICE equals out to 1 less innocent murder victim you and your nit pick pro friends would rather see in a grave than to end a killers career. dio
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Post by johnny61 on Nov 1, 2005 18:41:09 GMT -5
How anyone can actually mount an argument for the death penalty based on financial considerations is beyond me.
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Post by judywaits4u on Nov 1, 2005 18:53:28 GMT -5
Bust the budget? Based upon the figure of $86.00 per execution I see no reason to think there would entail any noticeable strain....actually I am more than willing to foot the bill for 1 execution per month.$86.00 spent on JUSTICE equals out to 1 less innocent murder victim you and your nit pick pro friends would rather see in a grave than to end a killers career. dio It has cost in the region of $200,000 per execution in California.
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Post by distel on Nov 2, 2005 5:52:29 GMT -5
I think to apply the DP only to the "worst of the worst" is problematic, because in a system where people are punished for the crime, not for the way they are, or what they are, you can't do this. It's a basic understanding of equality before the law that a crime must be punished the same way, regardless of who committed it. I think many people support DP only for the "worst of the worst". However, this can not function as it does not match the way crime is punished in general. You will always have to punish people for capital murder in the same way. So, you will have to kill also "normal killers" along with the "worst" if you support DP, and if you don't support DP, you will always have to live with it, that the "worst" won't be killed.
distel
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Post by judywaits4u on Nov 2, 2005 6:39:59 GMT -5
Often the worst of the worst are not executed as they manage to get plea bargains.
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Post by skyloom on Nov 2, 2005 12:37:07 GMT -5
Note the enormous increase in serial killer murders in the 60s when death senences in America were reduced radically and the US in 1972 then followed Europe's example of abolishing the DP. I do concede that a minority of murderers, e.g. suicidal rage killers, eligible for the DP in America are not deterred by the DP and for this type of offender LWOP is apparently the greater punishment.
If you concede that serial murderers are not deterred by the death penalty, what is the point of all these graphs?
I am convinced that murder rates, serial killings or otherwise, are a factor of more than one variable. If you look at the several characteristics that most death row residents share, you will find more reliable variables... poverty, low education, drug and alcohol use, and abusive childhood environments are a few of these.
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Post by dio on Nov 2, 2005 12:44:04 GMT -5
Bust the budget? Based upon the figure of $86.00 per execution I see no reason to think there would entail any noticeable strain....actually I am more than willing to foot the bill for 1 execution per month.$86.00 spent on JUSTICE equals out to 1 less innocent murder victim you and your nit pick pro friends would rather see in a grave than to end a killers career. dio It has cost in the region of $200,000 per execution in California. Eliminate the frivolous appeals and the cost will go down.Appeals should be limited solely to matters of guilt/innocence,it is of no concern if Tupac made ya do it,nor should it matter if mommy didn't buy ya candy everyday as a child.All that should matter to the courts is DID YOU MURDER.If the answer to that 1 simple appeal is yes....get the gurney out and save bucks dio
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Post by dio on Nov 2, 2005 12:45:14 GMT -5
How anyone can actually mount an argument for the death penalty based on financial considerations is beyond me. Johnny, I think Dio was having ago at spearmint for her arguments....he is a firm believer in the "just deserts argument" thats what they deserve Thank you X....you know me oh so well....LOL dio
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