Mo-DAWG
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Yes... this is the real Mo-DAWG ..
Posts: 47
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Post by Mo-DAWG on Oct 22, 2005 15:23:54 GMT -5
I have to continue to support the belief that the DP deters the cruel, heinous 'murders which in America are in most states occaisonally answered with the death penalty. Anyone who denies that the death penalty deters this type of murder is forced to concede that all murderers and potential murderers of this type-a minority of murderers and potential murderers-are like robots or demonic zombies, who unlike the rest of humanity will not alter their plans when they are revealed as life-threatening, nor be impressed our influenced in any way by the prospect of their own physical death. Note the enormous increase in serial killer murders in the 60s when death senences in America were reduced radically and the US in 1972 then followed Europe's example of abolishing the DP. I do concede that a minority of murderers, e.g. suicidal rage killers, eligible for the DP in America are not deterred by the DP and for this type of offender LWOP is apparently the greater punishment. Click the lower link below on my profile for the source of these statistics and article. [/quote] thanks for this miss ..its interesting and impressing to check ... Mo-DAWG
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Post by hotnosh on Oct 22, 2005 16:12:56 GMT -5
Among all the commentary on the 40 year crime low trumpeted in the media over there last week, nowhere did I see the continued presence of the death penalty given any credence as a factor.
Also, figures I read recently showed Dallas as the murder capital of the US, on the back of a serious drug-related crime wave. For anywhere in Texas to hold that dubious distinction, when executions in the State average out at about one every two weeks; evidence that the death penalty has an efficacy as a deterrent is thin on the ground.
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Post by dio on Oct 22, 2005 17:33:42 GMT -5
I totally agree Hotnosh....any argument that the DP is an effective means of deterrance is not only unfounded but also impossible to prove. dio
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Post by dio on Oct 24, 2005 9:37:46 GMT -5
You must also factor in the fact that only a tiny % of those murders deemed eligible for the DP ever recieve it.Then there is the fact that of say 1000 murders per yr we attempt to balance it with perhaps 50 executions.The numbers do not add up to any form of deterrent factor regardless of the brand calculator you use.It is simply given to infrequently and not carried out often enough to strike any hint of fear into a potential killers mind. dio
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Mo-DAWG
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Yes... this is the real Mo-DAWG ..
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Post by Mo-DAWG on Oct 24, 2005 13:17:13 GMT -5
I think it's really absurd that some people don't believe the DP is a deterrent. Worldwide and throughout history it has been a very effective deterrent against crime. In America of course we don't approve of the DP being used for anything except in cruel and heinous murder cases, but nevertheless it is a powerful deterrent against other offenses as well. In Saudia Arabia robbery is punished by the DP, usually beheading. Shoplifting is punished with amputation. In Saudia Arabia the inhabitants typically leave their keys in the ignition, regardless of wherever they park their cars and have no fear of their car being stolen. The DP has virtually eliminated robbery in Saudia Arabia. In Malaysia the possession and misuse of illegal narcotics ( drugs ) is punished by the DP. There is virtually no drug abuse in Malaysia-the DP has eliminated it. If the DP deters these other offenses it certainly deters murder. Humans as a rule avoid putting themselves in life threatening positions. Currently in America the DP is only carried out after at least 7 years of appeals, stays and delays. The powerful anti-DP lobby in the US and worldwide has also weakened the DP's deterrent effect, since we send potential murderers the signal that America lacks resolve on the issue of the DP. At any rate after the US Supreme Court outlawed the DP in 1972 there was a clear rise in murders, especially the cruel, deliberate and sadistic form of murders. Serial killers like bundy, g@cy, the btk killer, etc. committed their first murders, after the death penalty was no longer a possibility. This rise in murder ( especially serial killing murders )was reversed after the death penalty was reinstated. i dont think its a deterrent since states without cp have a lower murder rate than those with cp (if the statistics are right) ... texas even has a horrible murder rate...another thing is that a threatening dp might even backfire and let people kill more people just to avoid dp ... like you´ve killed someone and go on killing not to leave witnesses behind and to avoid getting the dp ... Mo-DAWG
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Post by judywaits4u on Oct 24, 2005 13:44:29 GMT -5
The USA should be able to learn from their own country that the DP is not a deterrant, seeing as the murder rate is 69% higher in the CP States compared to the Non-CP States.
Some will tell you that it is because they do not have much murder is why somestates do not have CP: However if you go and look at the statistics you will find that when the States reintroduced the DP the difference in murder rates was actually about 2%.
America does not want to learn how to reduce murder and thus reduce CP. CP if it has any use at all, purely reacts to past problems: However it does nothing about preventing the murders of the future. You have to remember also that Murder rates cover all murder and not just Capitol Murders.
Americans do not like hearing the truth and that is that their gun laws are at the bottom of the high levels of crime. However guns are not just a problem in crime, they are a problem in the USA full stop as two out of three deaths by guns in the USA are either suicide or accidental deaths.
There may be a case for not banning all guns but look at every illegally held gun in the USA, they were all held legally originally. It seems from looking at American television that people lose guns there like people lose mobile phones here in the UK. They need harder laws with regard to gun control and make losing a gun a criminal offence.
Bill Clinton signed a ban on assault weapons, then ten years later Gerorge W. Bush said that since the ban had been introduced gun crime had dramatically decreased, so he was revoking the ban. Now can anybody make any sense out of that.
Hand guns are banned from private ownership and in many parts of Europe, the biggest reason for this is because we saw that a large percentage of people who get shot in the USA are shot with their own guns. The second reason is why do you need a concealed gun to defend yourself.
Why was there a preceived increase in serial killers from the end of the second world war and the end of the seventies? Was there a rapid increase in serial killers? Probably not. The difference run comparitvely to the evolution in crime statistics and methods of reporting crimes and detectig crime on a national basis. The fall seems to coincide with better detection of serial criminals. The same thing has happened here since the invention of the Police National Computer (The PNC). In times past many people committed murders in several States but they were seen as individual crimes, nobody looked at them a serial criminals. I think that if you look at the number of so called serial killers you also have to look at the cases because so many of them I believe would not be classed as true serial murderers. If a person goes on the run and shoots five people in five different places over a five day period, statistically they will be classed as serial murderers: However they are not what most people would call seriqal killers, they are killers on a single killing spree. A true serial killer is a person who plans one murder after another, they are not normally in series and have no direct connection between them. The Yorkshire Ripper and Boston Strangler (Whom they have never caught) were true serial killers.
Americans will point out that our mental health services are not much better than their: However a Psychopath is less dangerour than a Psychopath with a gun. The majority of severally mentally ill people are very poor, both sides of the Atlantic: However the patient here sends request for a repeat prescription from their doctor on a monthly basis and then picks it up from the chemist. The same people in America have to contact the doctor, then the doctor has to contact the insurance company, then the insurance company contacts the doctor, the doctor then sends the prescription to the pharmacy, then the person has to get the prescription, if they have the money to pay for it that is. Very few people get free prescriptions in the USA compared to the more than 80% of all prescriptions in the UK. My experience is not limited to the UK because the groups that Kathi and I have are based on both sides of the Atlantic, in fact with our contacts in Australia we have the world covered practically 24 hours per day. It is too common to hear people telling me that they have cut their medication in half because they cannot afford the prescription charges in the USA. This is when the problem starts and they end up in hospital or prison.
The rise in people in prisons in both the USA and Britain goes hand in hand with the reduction of psychiatric beds. It almost goes without saying that the rise in murder also goes hand in hand with the number of mentally ill people going into prison.
I am told that the USA cannot have a uniform definition and system of diagnosing the mentally ill and mentally handicaped in prison, let alone among murderers. It is funny that every country in Europe and most of the rest of the modern world are able to do so. Until you have some uniformity, you will always have a certain number who will try to work the system. This is a system that should be based outside of the legal profession as in most countries.
One day America will have to face up to the problems that it has and not just try and cover over the cracks with retrospective punishments.
Love and hugs, Judy
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Post by judywaits4u on Oct 24, 2005 14:02:02 GMT -5
I think it's really absurd that some people don't believe the DP is a deterrent. Worldwide and throughout history it has been a very effective deterrent against crime. In America of course we don't approve of the DP being used for anything except in cruel and heinous murder cases, but nevertheless it is a powerful deterrent against other offenses as well. In Saudia Arabia robbery is punished by the DP, usually beheading. Shoplifting is punished with amputation. In Saudia Arabia the inhabitants typically leave their keys in the ignition, regardless of wherever they park their cars and have no fear of their car being stolen. The DP has virtually eliminated robbery in Saudia Arabia. In Malaysia the possession and misuse of illegal narcotics ( drugs ) is punished by the DP. There is virtually no drug abuse in Malaysia-the DP has eliminated it. If the DP deters these other offenses it certainly deters murder. Humans as a rule avoid putting themselves in life threatening positions. Currently in America the DP is only carried out after at least 7 years of appeals, stays and delays. The powerful anti-DP lobby in the US and worldwide has also weakened the DP's deterrent effect, since we send potential murderers the signal that America lacks resolve on the issue of the DP. At any rate after the US Supreme Court outlawed the DP in 1972 there was a clear rise in murders, especially the cruel, deliberate and sadistic form of murders. Serial killers like bundy, g@cy, the btk killer, etc. committed their first murders, after the death penalty was no longer a possibility. This rise in murder ( especially serial killing murders )was reversed after the death penalty was reinstated. The death penalty has no deterrant effect at all. I think if you actually look you will find that the countries you mention do have problems with robbery, theft and drugs. These are places where if you go to work in the military hospitals they advise you not to go off of the campus because of the crime levels. Every country in Europe has a lower murder rate than the USA, none of them have CP either. Would you want to live in a country that murders you if you are a woman and commit adultery, or offences against virginity, now that would be an interesting law to bring in in the USA. There would be no need for the contraceptive industry as there would be too few women left to repopulate the nation. Best wishes, Judy
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Mo-DAWG
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Yes... this is the real Mo-DAWG ..
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Post by Mo-DAWG on Oct 24, 2005 14:56:18 GMT -5
i dont think its a deterrent since states without cp have a lower murder rate than those with cp (if the statistics are right) ... texas even has a horrible murder rate...another thing is that a threatening dp might even backfire and let people kill more people just to avoid dp ... like you´ve killed someone and go on killing not to leave witnesses behind and to avoid getting the dp ... Mo-DAWG Well Mo-dawg, First off i'm a resident of Germany and the murder rate is rising in DP FREE Germany and other European countries while at the same time the murder rate in the US is decreasing. There is a very "politically incorrect"explanation for some of the apparent "disparaties"which antis site to argue against the deterrent theory of the DP. If you restrict our studies to say the statistics of murder committed by European-Americans and take note the DP free states in the US: North Dakota, Iowa, Minnesota, etc. have over a 90% population of Americans of European descent. According to the statistics gathered in this politically incorrect article those Americans of European descent descent even commit less murder than their European counterparts. www.tinyvital.com/BlogArchives/000220.htmlYou must concede that DP free South America, Mexico, etc.. all have much higher murder rates than the US does. Whether the non-existence of the death penalty, poverty, the tendency to direct violent aggression outwardly=(murder), rather than inwardly=(suicide) is the reason-well that's another discussion.. oh yes i read about rising murder rates in europe recently and it was kinda disturbing ... i used to think that europe was much less violent than the US but europe is not tooooo damn far away from it anymore ... the reasons for that? to be honest ..i haver no idea... but at the same time i seriously doubt that cp in europe would change any of this development ... but ok thats another subject since europe will not bring back the dp ... with the latin states i tend to think the violence has to do with poverty... i´ve been in latin american countries and you see lots of people who have nothing to lose there due to extreme poverty ... many become criminals cuz they need to feed their families and sometimes it seems becoming a criminal is the only way to manage feeding a family in some of these countries ..in the US its the same by the way... i lived in real bad environments there until i was in my early 20ies and many of those people i knew became criminals out of pure despair ..living that way gave me a certain view on these things ...its a view people who never lived that life may find hard to understand ... Mo-DAWG
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Post by judywaits4u on Oct 24, 2005 16:04:11 GMT -5
I think that if you look closer at the statistics you will find a rise in domestic violence and related murders. Many of these are not DP eligible in the USA and would not be affected by having the DP or not.
The second problem I am told in Germany is a problem with gun ownership since the East and West was reunited.
The third problem we are seeing is an ever increasing drug war that is resulting in more murders, not all murderers or victims deserve any sympathy.
It is no surprise to the experts that murder is on the rise because it was believed that the murder rate was becoming lower than you would expect in any civilised society. Despite the increase, the murder rate in Texas is still six times that in England.
Best wishes, Judy
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Mo-DAWG
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Yes... this is the real Mo-DAWG ..
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Post by Mo-DAWG on Oct 24, 2005 16:20:37 GMT -5
I think that if you look closer at the statistics you will find a rise in domestic violence and related murders. Many of these are not DP eligible in the USA and would not be affected by having the DP or not. The second problem I am told in Germany is a problem with gun ownership since the East and West was reunited. The third problem we are seeing is an ever increasing drug war that is resulting in more murders, not all murderers or victims deserve any sympathy. It is no surprise to the experts that murder is on the rise because it was believed that the murder rate was becoming lower than you would expect in any civilised society. Despite the increase, the murder rate in Texas is still six times that in England. Best wishes, Judy yes you´re very right on that Judy... i know about germany and i can tell you you can get drugs and illegal weapons without big problems and at rather low prices.... it really became a big problem ... Mo-DAWG
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Post by judywaits4u on Oct 24, 2005 17:40:12 GMT -5
I think that if you look closer at the statistics you will find a rise in domestic violence and related murders. Many of these are not DP eligible in the USA and would not be affected by having the DP or not. The second problem I am told in Germany is a problem with gun ownership since the East and West was reunited. The third problem we are seeing is an ever increasing drug war that is resulting in more murders, not all murderers or victims deserve any sympathy. It is no surprise to the experts that murder is on the rise because it was believed that the murder rate was becoming lower than you would expect in any civilised society. Despite the increase, the murder rate in Texas is still six times that in England. Best wishes, Judy yes you´re very right on that Judy... i know about germany and i can tell you you can get drugs and illegal weapons without big problems and at rather low prices.... it really became a big problem ... Mo-DAWG The Military police here have had a big problem with soldiers based in Germany buying cheap illegal guns and bringing them home with them as trophies. I one had a browning semi-automatic pistol, a sub-machine gun, a tazer, a stun gun and a cattle prod which I got from the USA without any checks, the nice men of the US Airforce even brought them over from America for me. I did not want them or need them but was asked to do this by somebody high up in the US Army as they had been trying to prove what a certain group were doing. I was in the British Army at the time and already had my own browning. Best wishes, Judy
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Mo-DAWG
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Yes... this is the real Mo-DAWG ..
Posts: 47
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Post by Mo-DAWG on Oct 24, 2005 17:45:29 GMT -5
yes you´re very right on that Judy... i know about germany and i can tell you you can get drugs and illegal weapons without big problems and at rather low prices.... it really became a big problem ... Mo-DAWG The Military police here have had a big problem with soldiers based in Germany buying cheap illegal guns and bringing them home with them as trophies. I one had a browning semi-automatic pistol, a sub-machine gun, a tazer, a stun gun and a cattle prod which I got from the USA without any checks, the nice men of the US Airforce even brought them over from America for me. I did not want them or need them but was asked to do this by somebody high up in the US Army as they had been trying to prove what a certain group were doing. I was in the British Army at the time and already had my own browning. Best wishes, Judy shiiit...this browning thing is cool ....9 mm caliber and 14 rounds ... and a sub machine gun? what was that? a modified AK or Uzi? tell me please.... i know a lot about guns and its a quite interesting subject.. Mo-DAWG
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Post by judywaits4u on Oct 24, 2005 18:49:47 GMT -5
The Military police here have had a big problem with soldiers based in Germany buying cheap illegal guns and bringing them home with them as trophies. I one had a browning semi-automatic pistol, a sub-machine gun, a tazer, a stun gun and a cattle prod which I got from the USA without any checks, the nice men of the US Airforce even brought them over from America for me. I did not want them or need them but was asked to do this by somebody high up in the US Army as they had been trying to prove what a certain group were doing. I was in the British Army at the time and already had my own browning. Best wishes, Judy shiiit...this browning thing is cool ....9 mm caliber and 14 rounds ... and a sub machine gun? what was that? a modified AK or Uzi? tell me please.... i know a lot about guns and its a quite interesting subject.. Mo-DAWG No it was a cheap old Sterling but to think how I got them here is the most frightening thing. I chose those because I was competant at using both the Sterling and the Browning, so it would not sound odd in my choices. Love and hugs, Judy
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Post by distel on Oct 26, 2005 12:23:26 GMT -5
I can't agree that in germany the murder rates are rising. I would rather look at the homepage of the german "Innenministerium" as the official site for criminal statistics, and not some blog somewhere: www.bmi.bund.de/cln_012/nn_122688/Internet/Content/Nachrichten/Pressemitteilungen/2005/06/Polizeiliche__Kriminalstatistik__2004.htmlThis article (which I could not find in english) says that 2004 the violent crimes, esp. murder and manslaughter have decreased since 2003. And the crimes altogether have decreased since 1993. In 1993 there were 120.000 more cases than 2004. The population has grown since 1993 about 1 million. In 1993, 43% of the recorded crimes were cleared up. in 2004, 54% of the crimes were cleared up. More people commit less crimes - That is a decrease. I qoute the article: "Fortgesetzt hat sich auch im Jahr 2004 der erfreulich kontinuierliche Rückgang bei Mord und Totschlag. Gegenüber 2003 sind die Zahlen hier nochmals um 2,4 % auf jetzt 2.480 Delikte gesunken. Seit 1999 beträgt der Rückgang sogar mehr als 13 %. " Translation: In the year 2004 the number of murder and manslaughter have again decreased. Compared to 2003, there were 2.480 cases which is a decrease about 2,4%. compared to 1999 there is a decrease of 13%.
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Post by skyloom on Oct 26, 2005 13:13:06 GMT -5
I don't see how on earth anyone can say that murders were prevented because of the existence of the death penalty. It's like trying to prove a negative. It's impossible to know who didn't commit a murder... for whatever reason.
I do think it might be possible to say that the existence of the death penalty correlates with a higher murder rate though, because I think that if a society is brutal in one way it is brutal in other ways. Texas... the obvious example... is sixth highest in murders even while it executes more people by far than other states.
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