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Post by attitude on Oct 5, 2005 4:31:18 GMT -5
No - Jesus was sinless, if you understood old testament law you would see that Jesus obeyed every single part of, it was the pharisees who were in the wrong. According to Jewish law Jesus was sentenced to death and executed illegally. Those who pronounced him guilty were in the wrong. Question? If Jesus was against governments executing people for murder then why did he not preach against it specifcally. I am aware of the passages of Jesus refusing to condemn the women for adultery (note: that it was adultery - and no where in the bible does god pronounce the death penalty for adultery outside mosiac law, unlike murder). Also note here, the Jewish were in breach of their own laws when they wanted to execute her. Also note what Jesus has said about the right of governments to govern. "Give what is to Cesar what is Cesar" and "All government is ordianed by God" You argument that we should not exeute people becuase Jesus has forgiven them is wrong. 1) You could easily say that we should not punish anyone for any crime, after all the bible says that GOd forgives all sins 2) Forgiveness only comes to those who ask God for it, and relates to eternal life and not to the life on earth. Christians are still left to deal with the "earthly consequneces of their actions" ie if they commit a crime they still have to serve the gaol sentence! Your theology is rubbish. When you refer to vindication for ones sins, it is not about releasing someone from punishment from their sins on earth, it is about being freed from judgement before God, and that happens after death. By the way you need to remember a couple of other points 1) Unlike most of the death row inmates Jesus did not do anything wrong 2) You also remember the guy on the cross who Jesus forgave, he is in heaven, but his body still died on that day there you go when it comes to the "law" discussion again....you said "unlike most of the Dr inmates Jesus did not do anything wrong"" ....you are right here Regina .... but their "law" said he did things wrong and so they could use their "law" to execute him on the cross ... you see you can call every sh*t "law" just to justify the death of somebody.. if they WANT to kill they always find a way to as well as they always find ways to justify the killings.... Why? ...cuz they can..they juast label their sh*t as "law" and do it ... ...those that find Jesus Christ and really regret go to heaven ...thats what is said .... so that means that an inmate who finds Jesus and regrets goes to heaven after his death...what about those who executed the inmate? they will never regret and ask Jesus for forgiveness cuz they´re convinced they did right by following human "law" ...will they go to heaven as well although they´ve never asked Jesus for forgiveness and never regret .... Mo-DAWG
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Post by paleone on Oct 5, 2005 8:12:17 GMT -5
1) You could easily say that we should not punish anyone for any crime, after all the bible says that GOd forgives all sins 2) Forgiveness only comes to those who ask God for it, and relates to eternal life and not to the life on earth. Christians are still left to deal with the "earthly consequneces of their actions" ie if they commit a crime they still have to serve the gaol sentence! actually, i was stating that people need to stop spewing their hatred with this whole eye for an eye thing..and claiming God wants it...when in actuality the bible does not...in fact here's another good example: Galations 19-25 19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. i am not saying that people should not be imprisoned. what i am saying and have been saying is that DEATH is not needed...and people need to stop using the bible to justify their bloodthirst and vengence. because they are misquoting.
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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Apr 6, 2008 22:24:38 GMT -5
Jesus' parable of the vineyard is in my opinion almost overwhelming evidence that Jesus did support or accept the death penalty at least in some cases! It would be very strange and contradictory for an anti to use such a parable with the death penalty being so self-evident as a punishment! In at least one other of Christ's parable the death penalty is mentioned in a matter of fact manner as it is here.. www.usccb.org/nab/bible/mark/mark12.htm Quote; Chapter 12 1 He ( Jesus ) began to speak to them in parables. "A man planted a vineyard, put a hedge around it, dug a wine press, and built a tower. Then he leased it to tenant farmers and left on a journey. 2 At the proper time he sent a servant to the tenants to obtain from them some of the produce of the vineyard. 3 But they seized him, beat him, and sent him away empty-handed. 4 Again he sent them another servant. And that one they beat over the head and treated shamefully. 5 He sent yet another whom they killed. So, too, many others; some they beat, others they killed. 6 He had one other to send, a beloved son. He sent him to them last of all, thinking, 'They will respect my son.' 7 But those tenants said to one another, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.' 8 So they seized him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard. 9 What (then) will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come, put the tenants to death, and give the vineyard to others.
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Post by pumpkinpie on Apr 6, 2008 22:36:16 GMT -5
Jesus' parable of the vineyard is in my opinion almost overwhelming evidence that Jesus did support or accept the death penalty at least in some cases! It would be very strange and contradictory for an anti to use such a parable with the death penalty being so self-evident as a punishment! In at least one other of Christ's parable the death penalty is mentioned in a matter of fact manner as it is here.. www.usccb.org/nab/bible/mark/mark12.htm Quote; Chapter 12 1 He ( Jesus ) began to speak to them in parables. "A man planted a vineyard, put a hedge around it, dug a wine press, and built a tower. Then he leased it to tenant farmers and left on a journey. 2 At the proper time he sent a servant to the tenants to obtain from them some of the produce of the vineyard. 3 But they seized him, beat him, and sent him away empty-handed. 4 Again he sent them another servant. And that one they beat over the head and treated shamefully. 5 He sent yet another whom they killed. So, too, many others; some they beat, others they killed. 6 He had one other to send, a beloved son. He sent him to them last of all, thinking, 'They will respect my son.' 7 But those tenants said to one another, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.' 8 So they seized him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard. 9 What (then) will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come, put the tenants to death, and give the vineyard to others. I'm not sure how to take this. I do know that Jesus was merciful. He forgave a woman for adultry when she approached him and kissed his feet, cleansing his feet with her tears. He told her she was forgiven and to sin no further. Will any double murderers be welcomed into the gates of Heaven? Maybe... if they redeemed themselves in prison and "PAYED" in this lifetime a price for what they did.
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Post by andie on Apr 7, 2008 10:25:32 GMT -5
hmm I don't see how Jesus's era was or is relevant to the DP or crime. Sure Jesus forgave the sins of the woman who comitted adultry, and the man on the cross who comitted a crime but like one poster said, it was to forgive the soul and not the body...even looking at a natural theorists perspective EVERYTHING bad in their views were to be avoided because judgement would be from God and not human.
However that is beside the point I'm trying to make, back then everything was a crime against religion-which is what Jesus was doing comitting a crime against God....even when the crowd had a choice to murder jesus or that B guy who raped and murdered (I think) they choose a person who comitted a crime against religion over someone who could possibly reoffend. Again it's all about priorities....
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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Apr 9, 2008 21:07:25 GMT -5
Jesus' apostles, at least in the later part of his ministry were generally armed with swords.. Jesus in fact insisted that they armed themselves with swords! It's true that Christ stopped Peter, when he wanted to defend Christ with the sword from the soldiers who came to arrest him. I think it's reasonable to believe that Christ would have approved the use of the sword by Peter and his other apostles if they were attacked by homicidal thieves.
If not, what would be the purpose of carrying swords?
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Post by pumpkinpie on Apr 9, 2008 21:19:53 GMT -5
I think it's reasonable to believe that Christ would have approved the use of the sword by Peter and his other apostles if they were attacked by homicidal thieves. If not, what would be the purpose of carrying swords? Hi Eva, I agree with you there....
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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Apr 10, 2008 9:10:34 GMT -5
I think it's reasonable to believe that Christ would have approved the use of the sword by Peter and his other apostles if they were attacked by homicidal thieves. If not, what would be the purpose of carrying swords? Hi Eva, I agree with you there.... Hi Pumpkin! I thought you'd like this pic! When I read Christ's teachings in the Bible I feel the conclusion that there are two types of "evildoers" in the world is inescapable.. 1 ) The person, who is misled by evil and does not enjoy committing evil acts. Saul was simply following the orders of the Pharisees when he executed Stephen for being a Christian.. Of course Saul soon realized he was on the wrong side in this ideological war and became Paul. It's to this first group of evildoers that the phrase "turn the other cheek", when they strike you, is obviously directed to. 2) The 2nd class of evildoers is referred to in Christ's parable of the good seeds and the bad seeds in Matthew 13! The seeds refer to people and the bad seeds are described as being Satan's demons in human form..They are truly evil to the core and Christ describes them as animals ( pigs, dogs, vipers..) and instructs us to give these evildoers nothing of value! scripturetext.com/matthew/7-6.htm QUOTE: "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
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Post by happyhaddock on Apr 10, 2008 12:28:19 GMT -5
1 ) The person, who is misled by evil and does not enjoy committing evil acts. Saul was simply following the orders of the Pharisees when he executed Stephen for being a Christian.. Of course Saul soon realized he was on the wrong side in this ideological war and became Paul. Actually that's a common conflation of two things. His name in Aramaic was Rav Sha'ul (Rabbi Sha'ul). When converted to Greek the Sh is converted to an S (no 'sh' in Greek) and the unvoiced letter was dropped. For his Greek friends he used the name Paulos. This became anglicized as Paul. In the same way, Yeshua became Jesus (most Greek names end in s and this was greekified and then anglicized to Jesus). The dual names were not related to any experience on the road to Damascus.
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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Apr 20, 2008 15:47:14 GMT -5
1 ) The person, who is misled by evil and does not enjoy committing evil acts. Saul was simply following the orders of the Pharisees when he executed Stephen for being a Christian.. Of course Saul soon realized he was on the wrong side in this ideological war and became Paul. Actually that's a common conflation of two things. His name in Aramaic was Rav Sha'ul (Rabbi Sha'ul). When converted to Greek the Sh is converted to an S (no 'sh' in Greek) and the unvoiced letter was dropped. For his Greek friends he used the name Paulos. This became anglicized as Paul. In the same way, Yeshua became Jesus (most Greek names end in s and this was greekified and then anglicized to Jesus). The dual names were not related to any experience on the road to Damascus. That may be the case, but the important thing is even if the name "Paul" is an English mistranslation he lead a very different life after he stopped serving the Pharisees and served Christ!
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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Apr 20, 2008 15:52:34 GMT -5
Directly and here by inferrence there are many passages that support the DP in the Bible and presumably Christ's support of the DP! The death penalty is again and again clearly advocated in the Old Testament! It's my feeling that some of the harsher uses of the death penalty were in times of famine, where like on the sinking Titanic, not everyone could be saved from death.. Christ i believe lived in a time where it was no longer neccesary to kill certain lesser "wrongdoers" to have enough food to feed a child.. or as on the Titanic let someone die so that a child would have a place in the lifeboat.. Christ very clearly never dissasociated himself from the teachings in the Old Testament, which are very pro-DP! scripturetext.com/matthew/5-17.htm QUOTE: "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill."5.7
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Post by happyhaddock on Apr 21, 2008 15:07:18 GMT -5
That may be the case, but the important thing is even if the name "Paul" is an English mistranslation he lead a very different life after he stopped serving the Pharisees and served Christ! That's one interpretation. Another is that he created his own religion, based on Mithraism, and merely 'appointed' Yeshua as the nominal magical head of it. Certainly many of the original followers of Yeshua rejected Paulos and his new religion.
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Post by happyhaddock on Apr 21, 2008 15:14:34 GMT -5
Directly and here by inferrence there are many passages that support the DP in the Bible and presumably Christ's support of the DP! The death penalty is again and again clearly advocated in the Old Testament! It's my feeling that some of the harsher uses of the death penalty were in times of famine, where like on the sinking Titanic, not everyone could be saved from death.. Christ i believe lived in a time where it was no longer neccesary to kill certain lesser "wrongdoers" to have enough food to feed a child.. or as on the Titanic let someone die so that a child would have a place in the lifeboat.. Christ very clearly never dissasociated himself from the teachings in the Old Testament, which are very pro-DP! Hardly surprising. They had very few penalties available to them back then and life was short, ugly and cheap. However he also said: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment. The second is like this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And then there is Leviticus 19:18 'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself". My opinion is that we should so as little harm as we can in order to be safe, not seek as much bloody revenge as we are capable of.
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Post by godhasitdown on Jul 12, 2008 23:05:24 GMT -5
Yeah I am new here and I just came from a site where the people bashed me because I was defending a man on death row. I have never and I mean NEVER been treated so badly by even the worst of people in my life. I don't think that pro-death penality people have anything to do with Jesus really. If they truly were Christians and loved Jesus, they would not act that way. They are IMO all going to be judged in the end and it won't be a judge sitting on a bench or a jury of 12. It will be way way worse. Poor pathetic people. Are they really humane?
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Post by godhasitdown on Jul 12, 2008 23:08:56 GMT -5
It is simple. Jesus was born without sin, lived a life without sin and died for the sins of all mankind. Even the pro-death penalty people. I, for the life of me cannot understand how even our God can be that forgiving. BUT he is. It is hard to imagine. I forgive people for things all the time no matter what they do. Everyone on this Earth sins. All sins are equal. Even if a person is "thinking" of killing someone on a gurney, they are commiting murder in the eyes of God. Thinking it is as bad as doing it according to him.
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