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Post by andie on Aug 20, 2008 19:09:26 GMT -5
ok for my sake i'll entertain the thought of the death penalty as revenge. The revenge comes from you take a life and have your life taken away. Pretty simple logic on both the principle of the dp and the act of revenge. Now let's just say for argument purposes that there are people on death row who are guilty of murder..(i know there are some who are not or maybe are and so on but just for argument sake let me have this point) Anyway because this person comitted the act in a death penalty it would be fair to assume that he or she is aware of the consequences...and because he or she went through with the act and landed themself on death row then how is it revenge when their own idiotic actions landed them their in the first place..isn't it more of a form of suicide then revenge...i mean from the perspective that they are taking the risk and the risk is the death penalty? is it really revenge when the death penalty can pretty much be stopped if those who are on it or going to be on it did not act out of impulse or act out on revenge in the first place? What I am trying to get at is no matter what sentence you look at three months, 25 years, lwop, or the dp...it all can be considered revenge on that person or persons for going against the law...it's not just one system or one person for that matter, it's not about the people who support or don't support the death penalty it's about the people who could recieve and are waiting on dr to get the dp. It's about the victims who were caught in the middle and the systems set in place to try and deter crime and save potential victims. .......we haven't got that far yet. I know, i mixed it up....states with dp have higher murder rates then states without......... I know the dp isn't a deterrent...but neither is jail so.... Oh Andie! In states with a traditionally high murder rate public opinion forces the DP into law, in the US at least! In Texas the most pro DP state in the US only 1 in 100 homicide cases qualifies as a DP case or has at least the potential to become a DP case! In Texas if someone shoots someone caught cheating at cards this killer won't have to worry about facing the DP because the DP doesn't apply to "simple" homicides without special aggravating circumstances! Why do people constantly site the homicide rate without taking into consideration that some homicides are simply DP exempt and so how can anyone expect "DP exempt homicides" to be deterred by the DP??? ? If you want to see evidence of the deterrence effect of the DP look at say the reduction of DP eligible rape murders in Texas! [/quote the so...... is the big question. Young people like you need to focus on the so...... be proactive not reactive. The DP is pure revenge. If you approve of that fine, but you need to have the guts to admit it. (I'm not saying you don't, but there are lots of crazy pros such as the German guy/girl on pro dp who tell us time and time again it IS a deterrent when the figures clearly indicate otherwise)
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Post by pumpkinpie on Aug 20, 2008 21:41:20 GMT -5
ok for my sake i'll entertain the thought of the death penalty as revenge. The revenge comes from you take a life and have your life taken away. Pretty simple logic on both the principle of the dp and the act of revenge. Now let's just say for argument purposes that there are people on death row who are guilty of murder..(i know there are some who are not or maybe are and so on but just for argument sake let me have this point) Anyway because this person comitted the act in a death penalty it would be fair to assume that he or she is aware of the consequences...and because he or she went through with the act and landed themself on death row then how is it revenge when their own idiotic actions landed them their in the first place..isn't it more of a form of suicide then revenge...i mean from the perspective that they are taking the risk and the risk is the death penalty? is it really revenge when the death penalty can pretty much be stopped if those who are on it or going to be on it did not act out of impulse or act out on revenge in the first place? What I am trying to get at is no matter what sentence you look at three months, 25 years, lwop, or the dp...it all can be considered revenge on that person or persons for going against the law...it's not just one system or one person for that matter, it's not about the people who support or don't support the death penalty it's about the people who could recieve and are waiting on dr to get the dp. It's about the victims who were caught in the middle and the systems set in place to try and deter crime and save potential victims. .......we haven't got that far yet. I know, i mixed it up....states with dp have higher murder rates then states without......... I know the dp isn't a deterrent...but neither is jail so.... [/quote the so...... is the big question. Young people like you need to focus on the so...... be proactive not reactive. The DP is pure revenge. If you approve of that fine, but you need to have the guts to admit it. (I'm not saying you don't, but there are lots of crazy pros such as the German guy/girl on pro dp who tell us time and time again it IS a deterrent when the figures clearly indicate otherwise) The death penalty could pretty much be prevented, you say, if sickos would behave themselves and not make the decisions to kill? Like that's some rational choice made by a rational person or something? Obviously it's not. Stooping to the level of a murderer is needing justice to be death. And what this is, is an anti-death penalty site, incase you have forgotten. We don't need your lectures on revenge. Your beliefs are your own, but don't come here and lecture our beliefs. First you say the death penalty is not a deterrence, then in this post your claiming that it is. Maybe you should post more about that or do some studying and research on the topic so you can learn to come up with a consistent opinion.
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Post by mcdude on Aug 21, 2008 17:03:02 GMT -5
Exactly HappyHaddock. The person with the sentence can be the victim two, many however, choose to forget that.
Andie, I am NOT saying all who have the DP as a sentence are victims, but many are, only victims of what is not always so clear. The DP seeks to punish those in a barbaric fashion. I find that as unacceptable as the actions the murderer took in the first place as it is just as misguided. Of course, only my opinion, but just sharing. At least a prison term offers some hope of redemption and/or reform. That does not mean I hate the victims as some at pro dp would have you believe, just that I want to limit the number of victims.
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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Aug 21, 2008 19:14:37 GMT -5
Anyone who claims that murder cannot be deterred is claiming that we can abolish all deterrents or punishment for murder ( legalize murder ) and the murder rate would remain exactly the same!
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Post by andie on Aug 21, 2008 21:50:21 GMT -5
I know the dp does not deter murder. but the problem is more about "people" then it is about an actual system. but again not a perfect world......and this is an anti-dp site so..i'll just leave it at that............................... The death penalty could pretty much be prevented, you say, if sickos would behave themselves and not make the decisions to kill? Like that's some rational choice made by a rational person or something? Obviously it's not. Stooping to the level of a murderer is needing justice to be death. And what this is, is an anti-death penalty site, incase you have forgotten. We don't need your lectures on revenge. Your beliefs are your own, but don't come here and lecture our beliefs. First you say the death penalty is not a deterrence, then in this post your claiming that it is. Maybe you should post more about that or do some studying and research on the topic so you can learn to come up with a consistent opinion.
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Post by mcdude on Aug 22, 2008 7:00:15 GMT -5
Anyone who claims that murder cannot be deterred is claiming that we can abolish all deterrents or punishment for murder ( legalize murder ) and the murder rate would remain exactly the same! The stats prove that states with the dp do NOT have a lower murder rate. Period. At no point did I say there should be no punishment. I do not believe that in the heat of the moment, a person distinguishes in their head between the dp and/or a prison term and uses that as the final point of reference between commiting or not commiting a crime. If you do however, fine.
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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Aug 23, 2008 9:56:29 GMT -5
Anyone who claims that murder cannot be deterred is claiming that we can abolish all deterrents or punishment for murder ( legalize murder ) and the murder rate would remain exactly the same! The stats prove that states with the dp do NOT have a lower murder rate. Period. At no point did I say there should be no punishment. I do not believe that in the heat of the moment, a person distinguishes in their head between the dp and/or a prison term and uses that as the final point of reference between commiting or not commiting a crime. If you do however, fine. Murders that are committed in the passion of the moment are not DP eligible in any US state! If Cain killed Abel in Texas today this homicide would not be DP eligible! Only felony murders murder+robbery, rape, burglary, serial killers, etc. ( see link ) constitute a DP eligible case, which doesn't mean the DA will pursue the DP!! On the average 1 out of 100 homicides in Texas becomes a DP case..The potential rapist murderer in Texas probably knows he's risking the DP if he carries his murderous plan out! The Texan who guns down someone cheating at cards doesn't have to worry about the DP because such homicides are strictly non DP cases in Texas! Here are the Texas laws of DP eligible cases, which doesn't mean that a DP case will result! tarlton.law.utexas.edu/vlibrary/outlines/deathpenprint.htmlWhy do you people constantly try to site the 99% non DP eligible homicides as supporting your point! This is deceptive and wrong!
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Post by justme on Aug 23, 2008 15:28:12 GMT -5
The answer to your first question is yes. I actually agree with nearly 100 percent of what Andie is saying - and I did not read it as to be lecturing anyone. I thought this was the forum where we were allowed to debate issues associated with the death penalty. I know with one hundred percent certainty the DP is a deterent for the executed criminal. Whether or not it is a deterent to anyone else I do not know, because I do not know what the capital murder rate in Texas would be without the DP. But I also know it is punishment, and the individual solely responsible for the punishment is the same individual who committed the capital murder in the first place. The death penalty could pretty much be prevented, you say, if sickos would behave themselves and not make the decisions to kill? Like that's some rational choice made by a rational person or something? Obviously it's not. Stooping to the level of a murderer is needing justice to be death. And what this is, is an anti-death penalty site, incase you have forgotten. We don't need your lectures on revenge. Your beliefs are your own, but don't come here and lecture our beliefs. First you say the death penalty is not a deterrence, then in this post your claiming that it is. Maybe you should post more about that or do some studying and research on the topic so you can learn to come up with a consistent opinion. [/quote]
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Post by mcdude on Aug 23, 2008 17:20:58 GMT -5
The stats prove that states with the dp do NOT have a lower murder rate. Period. At no point did I say there should be no punishment. I do not believe that in the heat of the moment, a person distinguishes in their head between the dp and/or a prison term and uses that as the final point of reference between commiting or not commiting a crime. If you do however, fine. Murders that are committed in the passion of the moment are not DP eligible in any US state! If Cain killed Abel in Texas today this homicide would not be DP eligible! Only felony murders murder+robbery, rape, burglary, serial killers, etc. ( see link ) constitute a DP eligible case, which doesn't mean the DA will pursue the DP!! On the average 1 out of 100 homicides in Texas becomes a DP case..The potential rapist murderer in Texas probably knows he's risking the DP if he carries his murderous plan out! The Texan who guns down someone cheating at cards doesn't have to worry about the DP because such homicides are strictly non DP cases in Texas! Here are the Texas laws of DP eligible cases, which doesn't mean that a DP case will result! tarlton.law.utexas.edu/vlibrary/outlines/deathpenprint.htmlWhy do you people constantly try to site the 99% non DP eligible homicides as supporting your point! This is deceptive and wrong! Whjat are you talking about? Where did I mention crimes in the heat of the moment? I am talking about a murder commited for any reason at all. To my mind, all murder is a BIG DEAL, therefore a persons mind set can not be 'normal' when they take the action they take. As a result, I don't believe that they have time to consider the DP, or LWOP, or 7 - life etc etc being their punishment.
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Post by pumpkinpie on Aug 23, 2008 21:49:06 GMT -5
The answer to your first question is yes. I actually agree with nearly 100 percent of what Andie is saying - and I did not read it as to be lecturing anyone. I thought this was the forum where we were allowed to debate issues associated with the death penalty. I know with one hundred percent certainty the DP is a deterent for the executed criminal. Whether or not it is a deterent to anyone else I do not know, because I do not know what the capital murder rate in Texas would be without the DP. But I also know it is punishment, and the individual solely responsible for the punishment is the same individual who committed the capital murder in the first place. The death penalty could pretty much be prevented, you say, if sickos would behave themselves and not make the decisions to kill? Like that's some rational choice made by a rational person or something? Obviously it's not. Stooping to the level of a murderer is needing justice to be death. And what this is, is an anti-death penalty site, incase you have forgotten. We don't need your lectures on revenge. Your beliefs are your own, but don't come here and lecture our beliefs. First you say the death penalty is not a deterrence, then in this post your claiming that it is. Maybe you should post more about that or do some studying and research on the topic so you can learn to come up with a consistent opinion. [/quote] Yeah, well you didn't read all of it, because a good part of it I deleted. Andie is gone now because in all of her recent posts she's been making cracks at me. She had a "problem" with me believing that Susan Atkins should have been granted a compassionate release, to die at home with her family. Way after the subject was finished she kept bringing it up in other threads, and even in this one. We deleted them, but the cracks were there about me believing it was revengful for a prisoner to die in prison. She just wouldn't let it go. And too many of her posts had to keep getting deleted lately. I was nothing but nice to the girl, defended her against other posters, put up a happy birthday post on her birthday.. But she stopped being respectful here, and if pros aren't going to be respectful, then they wont be allowed here. That simple. All pros and anti's here need to leave personal cracks out of posts and remember to debate about the subject, not the person. There's been too much of that going on lately. I'm not talking about you justme, because your always respectful, I'm talking in general. You asked about Andie, I answered.
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Post by justme on Aug 23, 2008 21:57:45 GMT -5
Fair enough....obviously I only read what I saw. That surprises me about Andie. Maybe she is just going through a rough patch.... Yeah, well you didn't read all of it, because a good part of it I deleted. Andie is gone now because in all of her recent posts she's been making cracks at me. She had a "problem" with me believing that Susan Atkins should have been granted a compassionate release, to die at home with her family. Way after the subject was finished she kept bringing it up in other threads, and even in this one. We deleted them, but the cracks were there about me believing it was revengful for a prisoner to die in prison. She just wouldn't let it go. And too many of her posts had to keep getting deleted lately. I was nothing but nice to the girl, defended her against other posters, put up a happy birthday post on her birthday.. But she stopped being respectful here, and if pros aren't going to be respectful, then they wont be allowed here. That simple. All pros and anti's here need to leave personal cracks out of posts and remember to debate about the subject, not the person. There's been too much of that going on lately. I'm not talking about you justme, because your always respectful, I'm talking in general. You asked about Andie, I answered.
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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Aug 24, 2008 0:34:26 GMT -5
I never followed andie's posts on the other threads! She's young and emotional! If you believe the testimony of another m@nson family member that S.A. mocked Sharon Tate as she was begging for her life and the life of her unborn child, etc.. you can come to andie's viewpoint.. My thoughts are so much more with the victims of such tragedies that i really don't devote much thought to S.A.
I disagreed with andie's retributionist position, but i will miss her here.
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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Aug 24, 2008 0:50:45 GMT -5
Murders that are committed in the passion of the moment are not DP eligible in any US state! If Cain killed Abel in Texas today this homicide would not be DP eligible! Only felony murders murder+robbery, rape, burglary, serial killers, etc. ( see link ) constitute a DP eligible case, which doesn't mean the DA will pursue the DP!! On the average 1 out of 100 homicides in Texas becomes a DP case..The potential rapist murderer in Texas probably knows he's risking the DP if he carries his murderous plan out! The Texan who guns down someone cheating at cards doesn't have to worry about the DP because such homicides are strictly non DP cases in Texas! Here are the Texas laws of DP eligible cases, which doesn't mean that a DP case will result! tarlton.law.utexas.edu/vlibrary/outlines/deathpenprint.htmlWhy do you people constantly try to site the 99% non DP eligible homicides as supporting your point! This is deceptive and wrong! Whjat are you talking about? Where did I mention crimes in the heat of the moment? I am talking about a murder commited for any reason at all. To my mind, all murder is a BIG DEAL, therefore a persons mind set can not be 'normal' when they take the action they take. As a result, I don't believe that they have time to consider the DP, or LWOP, or 7 - life etc etc being their punishment. You can't be serious if you wish to say that murderers, unlike any other criminal or human being for that matter cannot be influenced by the possibility of receiving the DP or LWOP for that matter! If this really is your position than you just give more power to the "Incapacation Argument" for the DP, which is discussed here! ccadp.proboards40.com/index.cgi?board=debate&action=display&thread=6879Yes there are pros, who will agree with you that murderers can't be deterred from murdering again and thus the DP is neccessary, because they are "ALL" robotic homicidal zombies! Remember too when we're talking about DP eligible murders in the US we're talking about the "worst of the worst" and not murder in general, which is usually some family conflict or argument among friends that escalates to lethal force! The "lesser murderers" don't have to fear the DP because the DP doesn't apply to their cases!
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Post by mcdude on Aug 24, 2008 17:58:52 GMT -5
Whjat are you talking about? Where did I mention crimes in the heat of the moment? I am talking about a murder commited for any reason at all. To my mind, all murder is a BIG DEAL, therefore a persons mind set can not be 'normal' when they take the action they take. As a result, I don't believe that they have time to consider the DP, or LWOP, or 7 - life etc etc being their punishment. You can't be serious if you wish to say that murderers, unlike any other criminal or human being for that matter cannot be influenced by the possibility of receiving the DP or LWOP for that matter! If this really is your position than you just give more power to the "Incapacation Argument" for the DP, which is discussed here! ccadp.proboards40.com/index.cgi?board=debate&action=display&thread=6879Yes there are pros, who will agree with you that murderers can't be deterred from murdering again and thus the DP is neccessary, because they are "ALL" robotic homicidal zombies! Remember too when we're talking about DP eligible murders in the US we're talking about the "worst of the worst" and not murder in general, which is usually some family conflict or argument among friends that escalates to lethal force! The "lesser murderers" don't have to fear the DP because the DP doesn't apply to their cases! Please forgive me because I am getting confused by your argument and therefore my responses may be confused. Are you saying that only premeditated murders are punishable by the DP in ALL American states? As a result, for example, all the men on DR in Texas are only the worst of the worst'? If that is your argument, then I repeat that the DP can not be a deterrent given that Texas, despite a love of executions, maintains one of Americas largest murder rates, thus suggesting the DP is no detterent at all? If that is your argument then you see the obvious flaw. Please do not call me deceptive, I am not a politician, just someone with an interest wishing to debate, there is really no need to be rude, this isn't pro death penalty. I accept that my knowledge is limited so there is no need to enter a p*****g conest with me. If you have all the answers I am waiting to hear them. I can only give my opinion and that is that since many men on DR are there following an introduction into this world fuelled by drugs, poor soci-economic circumstances and rage at the system, they are not 'run of the mill' citizens who respond to organised, plotted, deterrents. If you study the age at time of offence and education level along with economic and social background of the majority of men on Texas DR, I believe that they hail for backgrounds where hypothetical cause and effect models are not part of their daily routine as they are for the majority of middle America. I DO AGREE howwever, that for SOME the DP may be a deterrent, for normal everyday, satisfied, achieving individuals, but of course, they do not make up the majority of the DR population. Therefore, the DP as it is commonly applied is simply revenge.
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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Aug 24, 2008 23:54:30 GMT -5
You can't be serious if you wish to say that murderers, unlike any other criminal or human being for that matter cannot be influenced by the possibility of receiving the DP or LWOP for that matter! If this really is your position than you just give more power to the "Incapacation Argument" for the DP, which is discussed here! ccadp.proboards40.com/index.cgi?board=debate&action=display&thread=6879Yes there are pros, who will agree with you that murderers can't be deterred from murdering again and thus the DP is neccessary, because they are "ALL" robotic homicidal zombies! Remember too when we're talking about DP eligible murders in the US we're talking about the "worst of the worst" and not murder in general, which is usually some family conflict or argument among friends that escalates to lethal force! The "lesser murderers" don't have to fear the DP because the DP doesn't apply to their cases! Please forgive me because I am getting confused by your argument and therefore my responses may be confused. Are you saying that only premeditated murders are punishable by the DP in ALL American states? As a result, for example, all the men on DR in Texas are only the worst of the worst'? If that is your argument, then I repeat that the DP can not be a deterrent given that Texas, despite a love of executions, maintains one of Americas largest murder rates, thus suggesting the DP is no detterent at all? If that is your argument then you see the obvious flaw. Please do not call me deceptive, I am not a politician, just someone with an interest wishing to debate, there is really no need to be rude, this isn't pro death penalty. I accept that my knowledge is limited so there is no need to enter a p*****g conest with me. If you have all the answers I am waiting to hear them. I can only give my opinion and that is that since many men on DR are there following an introduction into this world fuelled by drugs, poor soci-economic circumstances and rage at the system, they are not 'run of the mill' citizens who respond to organised, plotted, deterrents. If you study the age at time of offence and education level along with economic and social background of the majority of men on Texas DR, I believe that they hail for backgrounds where hypothetical cause and effect models are not part of their daily routine as they are for the majority of middle America. I DO AGREE howwever, that for SOME the DP may be a deterrent, for normal everyday, satisfied, achieving individuals, but of course, they do not make up the majority of the DR population. Therefore, the DP as it is commonly applied is simply revenge. Hey McDude! Don't feel offended! The so-called high murder rate in Texas has little relevance if 99% of the homicides are not eligible for the DP! Premeditation isn't what makes a murder case in Texas DP eligible either! To discuss seriously the debate as to whether or not the DP deters "capital murder" we have to isolate the statistics of "capital murders" and compare them in Texas during the period when the DP was outlawed and when the DP was an option! It is noteworthy that the number of serial killers at large in the US quickly increased by 6 times after the US Supreme Court outlawed the DP in the 70s! Coincidence( ? ) or a potential serial killer's response to the "loving gesture" of outlawing the DP? You see McDude we have to monitor the statistics on "serial killers", rapist murders, etc.."a small minority of all homicides to study the deterrent effect of the DP! If Cain murdered Abel in Texas that says nothing about the DP deterrent effect in Texas because Cain will NOT get the DP in Texas or any other US state!
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