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Post by freerob on Aug 1, 2005 12:35:23 GMT -5
Ok, here's a question for the Pro's. I guess I'm aiming it at those that are Christians really... Doubt they'll be much response to this:
Q. Explain your justification to take a life (the State) v your beliefs...
This will be interesting!
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Post by armywife on Aug 7, 2005 15:58:15 GMT -5
HI miles, great question, and i have asked it, believe me. As you well know both my husband and myself are Baptists, and strong in our beliefs, I was raised that the death penalty was just, and i know what the Christians use to prove their point. Many times in the Old Testament it is stated that the death penalty was used, and supported by God. HOWEVER, what the Christians (and i am only talking about Christians here because we are the faith that believes in the New Testament and that Jesus was born and was the Messiah) but, what the Christians forget is that upon Christs birth and coming of age, New Covenants were passed, these changed the "old laws" the Mosiac and Judaic laws from the Old Testament. This is the reason Christians feel it is okay now to eat Pork for instance and not perform sacrifices. The Ten Commandments WERE restated in the New Testament, which is why they are still followed, and can we not forget that several of those address the Death Penalty as well as the people who murder? THOU SHALT NOT KILL.. it didnt have exceptions or amendments.. it was pretty straight forward. I can come up with more examples in the New Testament, but will stop for now. I know that the Baptists (again of which i am) use several verses out of context to bolster their belief in the death penalty. If it wasnt for Rich's case and further studying in the bible, i too would still follow this belief. Once i read it myself, with an open mind and without being FORCED to listen to just what the pastor wanted me to hear, i knew i was right, That my God would not justify the murder of a murderer, revenge is preached AGAINST in the New Testament. Anyway, i know you werent asking an ANTI to speak, but i wanted to give my 2 cents, to say.. i know what they will say here... Luv ya sweetie..
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Post by dio on Aug 7, 2005 18:06:09 GMT -5
I do not use my faith to justify my Pro stance so this would be an impossible question for me in many ways.However I am LDS,the church does support the DP,and it is a minor belief withn the faith that "He who shall shed the blood of another must also shed his own blood before the Father"In other words the church seems to believe that if you kill someone the only way to make it up to God is to be killed yourself....I may be wrong in this interpretation,I am only a member not a scholar of the faith.
I tend to base my pro beliefs upon the premise of a Justice system in which the punishment fits the crime.This of coarse does not mean that I favor the execution being the exact same as the murder in method and mayhem.I realize I failed miserably at answering your question,but I hope you can make some sense of the beliefs I listed above,I suppose if I was going to base everything upon faith that would be my only real answer for you.
dio
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miscmood
Doin' Time
If the world is night, shine my life like a light
Posts: 78
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Post by miscmood on Aug 7, 2005 19:41:24 GMT -5
THOU SHALT NOT KILL.. it didnt have exceptions or amendments.. it was pretty straight forward ... I know that the Baptists (again of which i am) use several verses out of context to bolster their belief in the death penalty. If it wasnt for Rich's case and further studying in the bible, i too would still follow this belief. Once i read it myself, with an open mind and without being FORCED to listen to just what the pastor wanted me to hear, i knew i was right, That my God would not justify the murder of a murderer, revenge is preached AGAINST in the New Testament. Here's another anti also putting in two cents worth; mainly to support what armywife has written. There was, indeed, no stipulation or addendum to THOU SHALT NOT KILL in the Bible. It says to me that it's wrong to take a life. Period. Atone for it and you are forgiven. That is the promise God made through the death of Jesus Christ. He is where the buck stops. And, I would like to add that we shouldn't just zero in on Baptists as picking and choosing Scripture to suit their taste; all Christians are capable of hiding behind snippets of Bible verses, regardless of whether they are Baptists or not. Indeed, Christ's teachings and faith structure provided for "turn the other cheek" rather than strike back, with a death for a death. What purpose does revenge serve? In my experience, from what I've read elsewhere from pros on this board, revenge serves to harden hearts to the point of making forgiveness impossible. In the New Testament, Paul was responsible for the brutal deaths of hundreds of Christians, yet God chose him to act as his instrument through conversion. If Paul could be forgiven, then so can we all. Thanks, Miles. Great question, from any angle. Missy
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Post by win on Aug 7, 2005 21:22:39 GMT -5
I do not use my faith to justify my Pro stance so this would be an impossible question for me in many ways.However I am LDS,the church does support the DP,and it is a minor belief withn the faith that "He who shall shed the blood of another must also shed his own blood before the Father"In other words the church seems to believe that if you kill someone the only way to make it up to God is to be killed yourself....I may be wrong in this interpretation,I am only a member not a scholar of the faith. I tend to base my pro beliefs upon the premise of a Justice system in which the punishment fits the crime.This of coarse does not mean that I favor the execution being the exact same as the murder in method and mayhem.I realize I failed miserably at answering your question,but I hope you can make some sense of the beliefs I listed above,I suppose if I was going to base everything upon faith that would be my only real answer for you. dio I think dio has pretty much got the bible verse correct. I think I believe that the premise that murder is punishable by death existed before the Mosaic law, and hence it existed after the fulfillment of Mosaic law. I do think that many of the arguments that antis present out of the Bible are invalid, to an inmate convicted for murder .... however I will need some notes that I do not have with me at this point in time. I tend to study theology in my spare time, and I have spent some time researching cthat Bible as it relates to capital punishment
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Post by paleone on Aug 7, 2005 21:32:15 GMT -5
i am going to repost a post i did in another thread, it pretty much applies to this too. i am anti...
As a christian i will say what the bible is discussing. i told this to some of the DP protestors at the walls unit on thursday last week and they were intrigued because they never heard it put this way...
ok...the OT in the bible speaks of Eye for an Eye...the reasoning for this was that in the OT times they needed atonement for their sins...and if someone sinned against you, you were allowed to seek the same in return...blood for blood...there were other offerings and such done for all the different things they needed to "make right" with God or however you want to phrase it....
In the NT, we have Jesus, who was prophesied to come and atone for all of us...He was to be the fulfillment of the law...no longer are we required to do burnt offerings, incense offerings, eye for an eye, or anything. See in the OT, the offerings had to be flawless. So when they would sacrifice a lamb, it was not to have bruising or imperfections. So when Jesus was sent to the earth to live as a man, with all the temptations of a human, He was sinless, causing Him to be a flawless sacrifice. So when He was killed on the cross, His blood was to cover all of our sins. In fact, when He was about to die, He said "forgive them Father for they know not what they do". he was actually forgiving the people killing him...He also stopped people from stoning a woman saying "he who is without sin cast the first stone". and i feel also that that means that because man is not without sin, and in fact flawed, so is man's system they created. so how can the death penalty be a flawless system when it was created by a flawed group? Jesus also said that it has been said an Eye for an eye, but we are to love our enemies and do good to those who hate us. In fact, it even says that if we are kind to someone who sinned against us, then it would be like heaping coals over their head (in other words, killing them with kindness)
on top of all of that...this may sound harsh, but it was actually discussed in the bible...when someone was wanting to follow Jesus, he asked if he could first bury his father. and Jesus said to him "let the dead bury the dead". in other words, He was saying that it will be impossible to follow God if we continue to look to our dead and mourn them...
now don't take that as a phrase that means that people are nto allowed to grieve...that's not what it's saying...but if you live your life and do not move forward out of your mourning, you will not live a fulfilled life. So the "closure" really isnt going to help, because it isnt the blood of the accused that atones for anything...only Jesus atoned...and fulfilled the law from the OT
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Post by armywife on Aug 7, 2005 21:40:16 GMT -5
As some know, my husband more than studies theology in his spare time, he studies it constantly, he has been called to be an Evangelist and can speak circles around everyone i know except our minister. So when i speak of what i read in the Bible, it comes from him, his studies and thorough questions i ask our minister. Judaic and Mosaic law are laws Pre-Christ, Christ brought forth ALL new covenants, with him the old laws were naught. I can and will give you biblical references to my points, that support the Anti view of the bibles teachings. However, it wont be tonight as its late and i have to work in the morning. Most of the verses the Pro's use, even my own faith, are taken way out of context, you would have to read and understand further, only portions that sound like the suit the needs are used. For instance, and i dont have the exact verse right now, i will post that this week, one verse a Baptist minister quoted me states that God gives the Judiciary the power of judgment in his name, However if you read the preceeding verses you will see thats NOT what is meant there. (Miscmood i pick on the Baptists only because it is my faith and the only one on which i have enough knowledge to speak, J as you know has extensive knowledge on others and could speak more fully on them.. you heard him.. lol.. he can talk your ear off on this topic!!!!) Dio i respect your views, honestly, but if the punishment is to fit the crime, as I know you have heard, then shouldnt it fit all the way around? i mean, steal from a thief, rape a rapist, etc? we dont do that, so what allows us to Murder a murderer? Justifiable homicide.. thats what Texas calls it now.. its still homicide...
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Post by dio on Aug 8, 2005 1:46:16 GMT -5
Dio i respect your views, honestly, but if the punishment is to fit the crime, as I know you have heard, then shouldnt it fit all the way around? i mean, steal from a thief, rape a rapist, etc? we dont do that, so what allows us to Murder a murderer? Justifiable homicide.. thats what Texas calls it now.. its still homicide...
I do not think the punishment should fit an exaxct description of the crime.Just because you go out and bash some old guy in the head with a tire tool then steal his wallet doesn't mean I'm gonna rush down to Raliegh to volunteer to bash you in the back of the head with a bat and steal your wallet.Perhaps if the justice system was set up in such a way we might actually see a reduced crime rate....I really have no idea.
But yes as a pro I do think that the level of punishment should fit the severity of the crime.I don't think a guy who steals $20.00 deserves the same as one who stole $2000.00.Nor do I think that someone who kills by pure accident deserves the same as one who stalks his prey like a lion in the night.The severity of the crime is what the punishment should be based upon,and to me nothing is more severe than the purposeful robbery of an innocent persons right to life.Hence for the most severe of crimes I fully believe the State should reward one with the severest of punishments,which is the death penalty.
dio
Ps just a thought but perhaps we should continue this discussion in the debate area?
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Post by spearmint on Aug 8, 2005 16:39:22 GMT -5
Any Christian who truly reads the Bible should have no problem supporting capital punishment. It's our duty as Christians to protect the innocent and the death penalty historically and worldwide has always been a convincing deterrent to those who would otherwise harm our loved ones. The current on-again, off-again implementation of the DP and the lack of resolve surrounding it at the moment has weakened the DP's value as a deterrent in the US.
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Post by sclcookie on Aug 8, 2005 17:08:23 GMT -5
Any Christian who truly reads the Bible should have no problem supporting capital punishment. It's our duty as Christians to protect the innocent and the death penalty historically and worldwide has always been a convincing deterrent to those who would otherwise harm our loved ones. The current on-again, off-again implementation of the DP and the lack of resolve surrounding it at the moment has weakened the DP's value as a deterrent in the US. Maybe we should teach our child right from wrong instead. Maybe that would be the more "Christian" thing to do. Especially, in a society that is coming to believe "spanking" your children is wrong. So if that's wrong, teach them that "murder" is wrong. There are many Christian churches that are against the death penalty. Maybe we should post a list of them somewhere. (had to take the discipline lecture out. That's for another forum)
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Post by dio on Aug 8, 2005 18:40:03 GMT -5
Any <a href='http://consumeralertsystem.com/cas/zx-hclick.php?hid=165' target='_blank'>christian</a> who truly reads the Bible should have no problem supporting capital punishment. It's our duty as Christians to protect the innocent and the death penalty historically and worldwide has always been a convincing deterrent to those who would otherwise harm our loved ones. The current on-again, off-again implementation of the DP and the lack of resolve surrounding it at the moment has weakened the DP's value as a deterrent in the US. I never knew that Pope JP2 never read the bible.........Hmmmm its amazing the things some pros teach me.Try again there speargirl,your argument failed to impress even me....AND I'M A BLOODY PRO.... Bloody in the context a Englishman would use it....My word would have never passed the censors ;D
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Post by paleone on Aug 8, 2005 20:35:37 GMT -5
Any Christian who truly reads the Bible should have no problem supporting capital punishment. It's our duty as Christians to protect the innocent and the death penalty historically and worldwide has always been a convincing deterrent to those who would otherwise harm our loved ones. The current on-again, off-again implementation of the DP and the lack of resolve surrounding it at the moment has weakened the DP's value as a deterrent in the US. YOUVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME! I guess you didn't read any of the posts in this thread. How about this....do you have your ears pierced? i bet you do...do you wear cotton blend clothing? i bet you do....does your significant other in your life shave his head or beard? bet so....do you ever eat crustacians? pork? how about offerings? do you do burnt offerings? peace offerings? incense offerings? i am sure you are not.....so guess what you have just done.....broken levitican law....and the bible says in the NT that if we are to live by the law, we must live by the entire law, else we have broken the entire law....so stop throwing the OT eye for an eye stuff around, when the bible is pretty clear that Jesus came to fulfill levitican law and atone for ALLLLL sin....so unless you feel your sin is the only one that was atoned for, i am sure that the big bad killers have been atoned for as well...or did you skip over the part where the bible says that ALLL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.... sorry, a bit sarcastic tonight...maybe i shouldn't read boards when i am sarcastic haha
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Post by spearmint on Aug 17, 2005 18:01:05 GMT -5
Christ altered and simplified many of the Old Testament Laws-for instance animal sacrifices were stopped, food laws were changed and Christ's intervention to save a woman condemned to death for adultery John 8:2-10 was a departure from Leviticus 20:10.
Christ taught that much was hidden from human eyes. Christ's parable of the workers in the garden ( vineyard ) shows us that he had no opposition to the DP for murderers. He taught us to love our enemies and never placed the humanity of these 'enemies' in question. Liberal humanist Christians don't like the image of Christ chasing people around with a whip, but Christ rightly did this too. There were also those in human form, such as cruel and heinous rapist-murderers, who had so removed themselves from humanity with their actions apparently that Christ placed their humanity in question by calling them serpents, dogs or PIGS. Matthew 7:6 '...Don't cast pearls to pigs...' We are advised or warned to give nothing of value to these 'pigs' in human form-certainly not early retirement with room and board in a comfortable prison paid for with tax money from their victim's family.
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Post by paleone on Aug 17, 2005 19:02:34 GMT -5
Well what miss spearment has done for us is do the classic misquoting of scripture. Let's take a quick lesson in the bible and look at it in it's entirety:
Matthew 7 1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. 6 “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces. 7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! 12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
hmmm...makes a bit more sense doesn't it? it is telling us not to judge others, for what we judge them we will in turn be judged..that is the beginning of the scripture she decided to misquote...now, what does it say after? that what we want men to do to us, we must do to them. so if people want death upon others so much in their sin...then that does that mean we expect?
..casting pearls before swine means NOTHING about "bad people" being called the names of animals..it means that if a christian were to continue to go to someone and preach to them and try to show them the "right" way...and the person rejects them time and time and time again...then you are casting your pearls aka, salvation in Christ, the love that we want to show them, etc....it isn't even meaning that people are so terrible, it's that they are rejecting the precious gift we are trying to give them....then they are trampling the gift we offer....
perfect example...i had written a penpal once who i would be kind to and spoke of God. he didn't care about what i had to say whatsoever, and he just kept trying to use me and attempt to manipulate me to do things he wanted me to do...so i could have kept on trying to "get him saved" or i can realize that i sowed what seeds i could and stop casting my "pearls" before swine...that does not mean *HE* is swine, it means that a pig doesn't know the value of the pearls...so to the pig it is nothing but a string of balls...possibly even edible...but to someone who understands the gospel of Jesus, they see the pearls for the preciousness that it is....
bible lesson for the day is over.....oh wait, here...let's see what our Lord likes to say about prisoners:
Matthew 25 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ 44 “Then they also will answer Him,[d] saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
i hope you are not falling under the verses in the last paragraph miss_spearment....how are you treating prisoners? because as you treat them, you are treating God that way....sounds like a loving God to me, not a tyrant who hates His children who sinned....maybe you forgot, but the bible says we have ALL sinned and fallen short of the glory of God...therefore, we ALL deserve to be cast away from God...but Jesus died for ALL sins....
bible lesson over for today....to be continued if people continue to misrepresent the Lord of love, forgiveness, mercy, and grace....for we are saved by GRACE
Dictionary definition of grace: A favor rendered by one who need not do so; indulgence.
God did us a FAVOR by dieing for us...He could have just cast us "evil swine" from Him and left it at that. to wallow in our filth..But He did not...
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Post by yellerdawg8 on Aug 18, 2005 13:08:07 GMT -5
I do not believe for a minute that God would allow anyone in Texas to carry out such a task. For that matter anyone in the World. God is God; not these self-righteous, so called, law makers we have elected. The Texas judicial system is the worst in America. My father was an officer of the law(deputy sheriff) for 42 years, my father-in-law was a TDCJ guard for 25 years, and I myself worked in the San Jacinto County Sheriff's office for 10 years. I can tell you many terrible things that went on in the name of the law. How does anyone think that a Perfect God would allow such goings on and then allow those same people to make such a horrible decision as to MURDER someone in the name of justice. I too, believe that we live and are governed by the NT and that Jesus Christ died for ALL of us, that whoever shall ask for forgiveness shall have it. So, murder is a sin, we ask for forgiveness and then we have to die as our reward??? I do not think HE thinks like that. When I think about the Texas Death Penalty I always think about those idiots that crucified an innocent man, name JESUS. Let's not continue to make the same mistakes. Are all DR inmates innocent??? Absolutely not!!!!! But, for the sake of those that are we cannot afford to take that chance; so offer LWOP. I have said time and time again Murder is Murder; no matter who and how they commit it.
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