|
Post by banshee on Jun 8, 2008 13:01:29 GMT -5
Pumpkinpie, Thanks! Banshee, because I used to write to one of the men convicted of the Pena/Ertman murders, I did study the case, and my penpal had no hesitation in discussing it with me. And yes, I have read many of Mr Ertman's statements and comments and most of them are very strong. I can understand why you feel this way. I do believe Jose Medellin is scheduled to be executed on 5th August, and Ertman stated that he's looking forward to watching him die ... so yes, I can see why you feel that way about him. This is just one of those things that us penpals have to deal with which we knew from the day we sent a letter to a convict. That they are hated beyond measure by most, that we will be criticised and condemned for befriending them, and worst of all, that the time will probably come when our friends will be executed. It's a sick world. I don't want Peter to discuss the Ertman/Pena case with me, I'm not interested. Look at Ertman again. He says he is looking forward to watching Jose die. Well Jose watched his daughter die and Ertman is looking forward to the same with Jose. So Ertman is no better than Jose was. Ertman is just an evil human being driven by hate and I hope he chokes on his own evil.
|
|
|
Post by briseis on Jun 8, 2008 13:09:47 GMT -5
Well, my penpal had discussed the case with me of his own accord, not at my request. Yes, you're right, as I say, Pros stoop to a murderer's level by supporting execution ... Fingers crossed for a reprieve with Jose. Kind Regards
|
|
|
Post by justme on Jun 18, 2008 10:34:41 GMT -5
Banshee - I have to respond to this somewhat.
Let me first say that I am not anti-death penalty. I hate calling myself pro-death penalty, because I do not rejoice over my home state of Texas executing someone. I wish the initial crime (that ultimately leads to the death penalty) never took place - then we would not be discussing this issue. But in the end I do support it (unapologetically) - although I think we use it too often. I will not try to convince you that it is "just" because I have about as much chance of successfully doing that as you do of convincing me it is not.
I respect the general position of anti's - that killing someone is unjust - period. No matter what the crime. I can see how people feel that way. I can respect their views. I have many great friends who feel that way, and we have had many deep discussions about the topics.
I also respect reaching out to someone on death row and providing grace. None of us deserve grace, and to give it to anyone, especially to someone on death row, is a tremendous act of kindness. I would never criticize you for that.
I would never write a hateful letter to someone on death row. I do not call them monsters or animals. They have been judged by a jury and given their sentence. Any judgement that is left is up to God. I hope they right their ways, accept responsibility, make peace with God, and achieve salvation. I believe someone who has committed even the most heinous crime (as Peter Cantu undoubtedly did) can achieve salvation, but I still believe that justice should be carried out.
I lived in Houston when this crime occurred. As noted above, people tend to demonize highly-publicized murders more than others. But there were three reasons why this crime was so highly-publicized: (1) Any rape and murder of a child is barbaric, but the brutality of the crime itself was almost unspeakable -; (2) The complete lack or remorse shown by ANY of the killers before their arrest, upon their arrest, during their trials, or anytime soon thereafter. If anything - they prortrayed a themselves as boastful and proud of what they had done..something we found in the community very hard to understand. (3) The intercation allowed by the judge between the victim's family and the killers. As a father of two, hearing the details of this crime on a daily basis was devestating.
I am sure you have read the full details of the crime, and asked Peter Cantu the questions you needed to before making your detrmination that he was an honest, loving man. So I do not need to repeat them to you.
What I take issue with is your feelings towards the victims and their families. You make your hatred towards one of the fathers very well known, and I sense even contempt for the victims. I struggle with this tremendously. No one, not even you, knows how we would act if our daughter was raped (vaginally, orally, and through anal intercourse), urinated upon, beaten, tortured, strangled to death, and then jumped upon to ensure life was completely gone. We are not equipped to handle such shocks to our system. Some family members eventually bestow grace on the killer. Others take Mr Ertman's route - they deal with the hurt and anger on a daily basis. It does not go away. I am not sure how I would react, but I certainly think it is possible I would react the same way he has. How in the world could you expect Randy Ertman to act positively towards someone that did that to his daughter? That is just not realistic. And what could you possible have against the two victims? You do not owe any of these people anything, I completely agree. But to have contempt towards them?
Peter Cantu may very well appear to be a caring, loving human being now based on his letters. But those are just words. Actions speak louder than words, and the last time he was independent of bars his actions spoke very loudly. I hope you are correct and that he is truly remorseful for his heinous acts. But I feel as if you have become too emotionally close to someone who very well could just be manipulating you. At the very least you are now confusing who truly are the victims versus the villains.
I hope you are just upset at the mistreatment you received by the pro's who made it their business to get into yours, and to judge you. I hope this is not the general feelings of all anti's.
Again, I respect the position that no life is worth taking, and I certainly respect providing grace to someone who has done nothing to earn it - that is the ultimate act of kindness. I believe in letting these people die peacefully, with the final judgement left up to God. But I also believe you have taken your emotional tie to this person to an extreme, and it has clouded your sense of reality.
Peter Cantu is where he is today because of Peter Cantu. Society did not do this to him. Texas did not do this to him. It is not the victims' fault, nor is it Mr. Ertman's. Peter is on death row because of Peter. May he find his way to God. If he does, I am sure you played a big role in that, but please remember both sides of this awful story.
|
|
|
Post by banshee on Jun 18, 2008 12:51:50 GMT -5
Banshee - I have to respond to this somewhat. Let me first say that I am not anti-death penalty. I hate calling myself pro-death penalty, because I do not rejoice over my home state of Texas executing someone. I wish the initial crime (that ultimately leads to the death penalty) never took place - then we would not be discussing this issue. But in the end I do support it (unapologetically) - although I think we use it too often. I will not try to convince you that it is "just" because I have about as much chance of successfully doing that as you do of convincing me it is not. I respect the general position of anti's - that killing someone is unjust - period. No matter what the crime. I can see how people feel that way. I can respect their views. I have many great friends who feel that way, and we have had many deep discussions about the topics. I also respect reaching out to someone on death row and providing grace. None of us deserve grace, and to give it to anyone, especially to someone on death row, is a tremendous act of kindness. I would never criticize you for that. I would never write a hateful letter to someone on death row. I do not call them monsters or animals. They have been judged by a jury and given their sentence. Any judgement that is left is up to God. I hope they right their ways, accept responsibility, make peace with God, and achieve salvation. I believe someone who has committed even the most heinous crime (as Peter Cantu undoubtedly did) can achieve salvation, but I still believe that justice should be carried out. I lived in Houston when this crime occurred. As noted above, people tend to demonize highly-publicized murders more than others. But there were three reasons why this crime was so highly-publicized: (1) Any rape and murder of a child is barbaric, but the brutality of the crime itself was almost unspeakable -; (2) The complete lack or remorse shown by ANY of the killers before their arrest, upon their arrest, during their trials, or anytime soon thereafter. If anything - they prortrayed a themselves as boastful and proud of what they had done..something we found in the community very hard to understand. (3) The intercation allowed by the judge between the victim's family and the killers. As a father of two, hearing the details of this crime on a daily basis was devestating. I am sure you have read the full details of the crime, and asked Peter Cantu the questions you needed to before making your detrmination that he was an honest, loving man. So I do not need to repeat them to you. What I take issue with is your feelings towards the victims and their families. You make your hatred towards one of the fathers very well known, and I sense even contempt for the victims. I struggle with this tremendously. No one, not even you, knows how we would act if our daughter was raped (vaginally, orally, and through anal intercourse), urinated upon, beaten, tortured, strangled to death, and then jumped upon to ensure life was completely gone. We are not equipped to handle such shocks to our system. Some family members eventually bestow grace on the killer. Others take Mr Ertman's route - they deal with the hurt and anger on a daily basis. It does not go away. I am not sure how I would react, but I certainly think it is possible I would react the same way he has. How in the world could you expect Randy Ertman to act positively towards someone that did that to his daughter? That is just not realistic. And what could you possible have against the two victims? You do not owe any of these people anything, I completely agree. But to have contempt towards them? Peter Cantu may very well appear to be a caring, loving human being now based on his letters. But those are just words. Actions speak louder than words, and the last time he was independent of bars his actions spoke very loudly. I hope you are correct and that he is truly remorseful for his heinous acts. But I feel as if you have become too emotionally close to someone who very well could just be manipulating you. At the very least you are now confusing who truly are the victims versus the villains. I hope you are just upset at the mistreatment you received by the pro's who made it their business to get into yours, and to judge you. I hope this is not the general feelings of all anti's. Again, I respect the position that no life is worth taking, and I certainly respect providing grace to someone who has done nothing to earn it - that is the ultimate act of kindness. I believe in letting these people die peacefully, with the final judgement left up to God. But I also believe you have taken your emotional tie to this person to an extreme, and it has clouded your sense of reality. Peter Cantu is where he is today because of Peter Cantu. Society did not do this to him. Texas did not do this to him. It is not the victims' fault, nor is it Mr. Ertman's. Peter is on death row because of Peter. May he find his way to God. If he does, I am sure you played a big role in that, but please remember both sides of this awful story. I do not care if Peter feels remorse and I do not care for Ertman and Pena or their fathers. My decision and mybusiness. You responded to me in a nice way so you deserved an honest answer. God bless you.
|
|
|
Post by justme on Jun 18, 2008 13:35:09 GMT -5
Thank you for your honest answer.
I will be honest and say I find your view confusing and disturbing, but it is your business and I am sure you have your reasons. I will not bother you about it anymore.
Thanks again.
|
|
|
Post by legallybrunette on Jun 20, 2008 19:47:58 GMT -5
I've just read up on what this character did to those children. Brutal and revolting. Oh God, I feel quite sick. Still don't agree with the DP but would not categorise this individual as the sweet petal he is being portrayed here. Children are another thing entirely. Hurt them like this and one leaves the realms of humanity and decency. : ( I dread to think what I would have done if my penpal had turned out to be a child killer and 'brutaliser' of this kind. In the event, he turned out to have panicked and shot someone during a burglary. I could countenance writing to him despite my sadness at learning what he did but this... well it would haunt me. Each to their own, I guess.
|
|
|
Post by banshee on Jun 20, 2008 20:07:12 GMT -5
I've just read up on what this character did to those children. Brutal and revolting. Oh God, I feel quite sick. Still don't agree with the DP but would not categorise this individual as the sweet petal he is being portrayed here. Children are another thing entirely. Hurt them like this and one leaves the realms of humanity and decency. : ( I dread to think what I would have done if my penpal had turned out to be a child killer and 'brutaliser' of this kind. In the event, he turned out to have panicked and shot someone during a burglary. I could countenance writing to him despite my sadness at learning what he did but this... well it would haunt me. Each to their own, I guess. You don't need to be his friend so get over it already.
|
|
|
Post by someonewhocares on Jun 23, 2008 22:37:35 GMT -5
While looking up more information on my pen pal Peter Cantu I came across this forum. It saddens me that there are people on here that are supposed to be against the death penalty but seem that they would make an exception supporting it in Peters case. I will be honest when I first looked up Peters history and found what happened I wasn't sure that I wanted to write him. I am a mother of 3 and a victim of rape so it was hard to look beyond that. In writing to your pen pal you look beyond that in a Christ like manner. Who are we to judge what he has done? No one has that right but the lord. Think of any mistake you have made in your life that seems like the most horrible thing you could have done either in your own life, your family and your community, and now imagine being judged on that your whole life shut from society and having to live every day with what you had done. Peter is now 33 and was 18 when he commited his crime. I'm sure he has suffered beyond what any of us can believe. Writing to a pen pal doesn't mean that we are cold and heartless and do not care about the victims families. I can not even begin to imagine what they felt with their loss and I know that in their shoes I would have that rage immediately that "I will kill whoever did this" attitude. But if we live with this outlook then we are murderers our self. It is no better just because it is done "legally". For me the main number one reason I am so against the death penalty is not just that we should forgive everyone because no sin is greater than the other but that IF WE SUPPORT THE DEATH PENALTY AND KILL EVEN JUST ONE INNOCENT PERSON THEN THAT MAKES US CRUEL AND MURDERERS OURSELF. No one has the right to judge Peter only the Lord. I don't judge him because he hasn't done anything to me. And think of what a wonderful world we could and would be living in today if there was no judgement passed between anyone of us. I love my letters from Peter they brighten my day and I am a person who believes 100% that God has a reason for everything. I am a very lonely person who has my children and no family, it's just me and Peter is a friend with no strings attached. The person who just sent me my first Birthday card in I don't know how long and the person who isn't going to hold any judgement on me for anything. If he can brighten peoples lives every day despite what his crime is then just let him do that, I'm not saying he's a super great person because I don't believe there is such a thing but I am saying he's human like you.....and like me, like the pope, and like Ghandi. He made a mistake he was young and that doesn't make any of us better than him.
|
|
|
Post by banshee on Jun 23, 2008 23:28:28 GMT -5
While looking up more information on my pen pal Peter Cantu I came across this forum. It saddens me that there are people on here that are supposed to be against the death penalty but seem that they would make an exception supporting it in Peters case. I will be honest when I first looked up Peters history and found what happened I wasn't sure that I wanted to write him. I am a mother of 3 and a victim of rape so it was hard to look beyond that. In writing to your pen pal you look beyond that in a Christ like manner. Who are we to judge what he has done? No one has that right but the lord. Think of any mistake you have made in your life that seems like the most horrible thing you could have done either in your own life, your family and your community, and now imagine being judged on that your whole life shut from society and having to live every day with what you had done. Peter is now 33 and was 18 when he commited his crime. I'm sure he has suffered beyond what any of us can believe. Writing to a pen pal doesn't mean that we are cold and heartless and do not care about the victims families. I can not even begin to imagine what they felt with their loss and I know that in their shoes I would have that rage immediately that "I will kill whoever did this" attitude. But if we live with this outlook then we are murderers our self. It is no better just because it is done "legally". For me the main number one reason I am so against the death penalty is not just that we should forgive everyone because no sin is greater than the other but that IF WE SUPPORT THE DEATH PENALTY AND KILL EVEN JUST ONE INNOCENT PERSON THEN THAT MAKES US CRUEL AND MURDERERS OURSELF. No one has the right to judge Peter only the Lord. I don't judge him because he hasn't done anything to me. And think of what a wonderful world we could and would be living in today if there was no judgement passed between anyone of us. I love my letters from Peter they brighten my day and I am a person who believes 100% that God has a reason for everything. I am a very lonely person who has my children and no family, it's just me and Peter is a friend with no strings attached. The person who just sent me my first Birthday card in I don't know how long and the person who isn't going to hold any judgement on me for anything. If he can brighten peoples lives every day despite what his crime is then just let him do that, I'm not saying he's a super great person because I don't believe there is such a thing but I am saying he's human like you.....and like me, like the pope, and like Ghandi. He made a mistake he was young and that doesn't make any of us better than him. Bravo, I love your post!
|
|
|
Post by happyhaddock on Jun 24, 2008 0:11:10 GMT -5
... No one has the right to judge Peter only the Lord. ... If the facts alleged in the case are true then I have no problem judging him. I certainly have no problem with LWOP. However I simply oppose the DP because it is applied in a totally arbitrary manner, and far too many innocents have been put on death row - and still are. Was the BTK killer less evil? The Green River Killer?
|
|
|
Post by justme on Jun 24, 2008 7:07:34 GMT -5
... No one has the right to judge Peter only the Lord. ... If the facts alleged in the case are true then I have no problem judging him. I certainly have no problem with LWOP. However I simply oppose the DP because it is applied in a totally arbitrary manner, and far too many innocents have been put on death row - and still are. Was the BTK killer less evil? The Green River Killer? The facts in this case, as horrific as they are, are not in dispute. We all judge each other..it is human nature. Pros judge antis. Antis judge pros (just like someonewhocares did in her post above). As I said, I grudgingly support the death penalty. I did not until I was in Houston and this crime occurred. As I learned the facts, and saw the defendents not show even one ounce of remorse for the crime, that was enough to push me to wanting the death penalty as an option. The entire community was wanting so bad to hear remorse, hear something from at least one of these defendants that showed they realized the gravity of their crime and how wrong it was. That never came..... I do not celebrate the death penalty. I feel for the family of the murderers. I respect the right of banshee and someonewhocares to to write these people and to give them grace. I think it is a vey Christian thing to do. But I will stop short of making Peter Cantu or any of these other defendants out to be someone they are not. They are where they are today 100 perecent because of their own actions. No I cannot imagine what he has been through for the last 15 years, waiting to die. But that pales in comparision to what those two girls went through before they finally died.
|
|
|
Post by banshee on Jun 24, 2008 9:38:22 GMT -5
If the facts alleged in the case are true then I have no problem judging him. I certainly have no problem with LWOP. However I simply oppose the DP because it is applied in a totally arbitrary manner, and far too many innocents have been put on death row - and still are. Was the BTK killer less evil? The Green River Killer? The facts in this case, as horrific as they are, are not in dispute. We all judge each other..it is human nature. Pros judge antis. Antis judge pros (just like someonewhocares did in her post above). As I said, I grudgingly support the death penalty. I did not until I was in Houston and this crime occurred. As I learned the facts, and saw the defendents not show even one ounce of remorse for the crime, that was enough to push me to wanting the death penalty as an option. The entire community was wanting so bad to hear remorse, hear something from at least one of these defendants that showed they realized the gravity of their crime and how wrong it was. That never came..... I do not celebrate the death penalty. I feel for the family of the murderers. I respect the right of banshee and someonewhocares to to write these people and to give them grace. I think it is a vey Christian thing to do. But I will stop short of making Peter Cantu or any of these other defendants out to be someone they are not. They are where they are today 100 perecent because of their own actions. No I cannot imagine what he has been through for the last 15 years, waiting to die. But that pales in comparision to what those two girls went through before they finally died. These two girls didn't suffer 15 years so don't even dare to compare them to Peter. Their fate pales in comparison to his.
|
|
|
Post by briseis on Jun 24, 2008 10:59:38 GMT -5
I can't believe you're discussing who's fate is worse than who's. These are human lives! Pena and Ertman were innocent young girls starting out in life, just wanting to get home to their families. The attack on them was cruel, it was needless, it was barbaric, and the murderers deserve punishment - life imprisonment. What they did was beyond my understanding as a human being, and how savage we are capable of being.
However, by killing Cantu and the others, the State merely replicates their behaviour, it devalues human life just as they did. It sets a bad example of a State out for blood and revenge, rather than for just punishment and justice.
Justice and revenge are 2 different things.
I think life imprisonment should be both punishment AND an attempt for the convict to feel remorse, feel guilty, realise the gravity of their actions, and the consequences they have not just on themselves, but on the person/people they have killed and the families who mourn them, and their own families who suffer just as much. And perhaps then rehabiliation can occur, and instead of executing an angry and bitter young man, why not allow an elderly man to die peacefully, after having made his peace with God and his peace with the people he has hurt and destroyed. A remorseful man. But a man at peace. Surely that's the humane thing to do.
|
|
|
Post by justme on Jun 24, 2008 11:09:40 GMT -5
I can't believe you're discussing who's fate is worse than who's. These are human lives! Pena and Ertman were innocent young girls starting out in life, just wanting to get home to their families. The attack on them was cruel, it was needless, it was barbaric, and the murderers deserve punishment - life imprisonment. What they did was beyond my understanding as a human being, and how savage we are capable of being. However, by killing Cantu and the others, the State merely replicates their behaviour, it devalues human life just as they did. It sets a bad example of a State out for blood ands revenge, rather than for just punishment and justice. Justice and revenge are 2 different things. There is more than one person on this thread discussing who had the worse fate.
|
|
|
Post by briseis on Jun 24, 2008 11:12:34 GMT -5
Justme,
I realise there is more than one person discussing it. I've been reading Banshee's statements just as I've been reading yours. My statement was aimed at BOTH you and Banshee.
|
|