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Post by legallybrunette on Oct 26, 2007 6:48:34 GMT -5
;D Hey you like Elton John too !! I am a big fan of his, despite his dubious taste in specs!! On the abortion issue, it occurred to me as I was reading through the various posts, that it must be hell for the product of a rape to spend their life thinking that they came into this world as a consequence of a heinous crime, unwanted and undesired and thrust upon society. I wonder if there are any members out there who have known someone who was just such a child and how they dealt with the fact as they grew up. This is one of those issues to which I cannot think of a right or wrong answer as there are as many right as there are wrong reasons for abortion, speaking as a woman. I remember that as a teenager, I had to go into hospital for abdominal surgery due to endometriosis. I didn't realise the full implications of the disease; infertility. It was an all female ward and there was a beautiful American lady who said she was 36. She sat by my bed and told me all about her wonderful career and then she burst into tears and poured out this sad story that she had had an abortion when she was 18 and healthy with the world at her feet. Then she had fallen a victim to endometriosis and it was slowly shutting down her gynae system. She had married in her mid twenties and they had tried for a baby for years but to no avail. She bitterly regretted passing over the chance to bear a child when she could do and saw what had happened since as some kind of 'justice' for the 'sin' she had committed in destroying a small innocent life all those years before. The story stayed with me over the years and I was doubly thankful when I fell pregnant despite my similar health problems. Really makes you think, you know.
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Post by pumpkinpie on Jan 18, 2008 22:41:29 GMT -5
Abortions in US hit lowest number in three decades Posted : Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:12:05 GMT Author : Peter Goodyear Category : Health The number of abortions performed in the United States has fallen to its lowest number since the last 30 years, according to a new report by the Guttmacher Institute. Some 1.2 million abortions were performed in 2005; at least 25 percent less than the number reported in 1990. This number was also 9 percent less than the number of abortions performed in the five years from 2000 to 2005, the report added. However it said that the number of surgical abortions may have come down mainly because most women were opting to use the controversial abortion pill RU-486. The new figures on abortions were released just days before the Roe v. Wade decision becomes 35 years old. That decision to legalize abortion triggered a spurt in the number of procedures performed in the country. It is reported that in 1980 1 among 3 women chose to undergo abortion. The latest survey of 1,787 providers found that surgical abortions in women aged 15 to 44 dropped from 1.3 million in 2000 to 1.2 million in 2005. In 1990 the number of abortions had peaked at 1.6 million. Previously the figure had hit 1.2 million in 1976; the first year after these procedures were legalized. Rachel K. Jones of the Guttmacher Institute said the reasons for the decline in abortions were not fully clear, "It could be more women using contraception and not having as many unintended pregnancies. It could be more restrictions on abortions making it more difficult for women to obtain abortion services. It could be a combination of these and other dynamics," she added. The report also found that the rate declined from 21.3 per 1,000 women in 2000 to 19.3 per 1,000 women in 2005. Furthermore 22.4 percent of pregnancies ended in abortion in 2005 as compared to 24.5 percent of pregnancies in 2000. This rate was the highest in 1983 when 30.4 percent pregnancies ended in an abortion. Randall K. O'Bannon of the National Right to Life Committee welcomed the trend. "It's still a massive number, but it's moving in the right direction," he stressed. The details of the study will appear in the March issue of the journal Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health. www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/174793,abortions-in-us-hit-lowest-number-in-three-decades.html
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Post by andie on Jan 20, 2008 14:50:10 GMT -5
i think abortion would be ok if a woman was raped and got pregnant from it....
or if a woman needed it due to complications
however it is still a choice and there are other options then abortion....but for teenager especially it seems as an easy way out.
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Post by poseidon on Jan 24, 2008 16:38:42 GMT -5
I am definitely pro-choice!
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Post by justice on Mar 21, 2008 23:33:33 GMT -5
Pumpkinpie I love you for putting up the subject. Though I sincerely believe in the death penalty. I am so against abortion. I think the Doctors that perform it and the mothers that participate in it should all be charged with murder. I have 4 children and I can not understand how someone could kill a child. They are living children. i saw picture one time of a partial birth abortion and it literally made me cry it was the most cruel thing I have ever seen. I understand that the partial birth abortion is now illegal but I do not believe that it doesn't still happen. That is why I believe in the death penalty so much. Anyone that would hurt these little guys deserve it.
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Post by justice on Mar 21, 2008 23:57:05 GMT -5
Poseidon: I am going to be as respectful as I can. I do not understand the whole pro choice argument. The choice starts with having sex. There is no accidental pregnancy except for rape. Or maybe my condom broke, The pill didn't work. No my friend maybe one in a million. People are irresponsible that is how it happens. Why should a perfectly beautiful wonderful child lose it's life because the mother and father are irresponsible. If people don't want to get pregnant don't have sex. If your going to have sex be responsible. I have 4 kids all girls and not one of them was an accident. When we didn't want children we didn't get pregnant. It's very simple. Be responsible. You want to go out get drunk, party. or what ever and(choose to be irresponsible)and get pregnant live with the consequences. Don't kill babies because your irresponsible.
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Post by pumpkinpie on Mar 23, 2008 8:50:37 GMT -5
Poseidon: I am going to be as respectful as I can. I do not understand the whole pro choice argument. The choice starts with having sex. There is no accidental pregnancy except for rape. Or maybe my condom broke, The pill didn't work. No my friend maybe one in a million. People are irresponsible that is how it happens. Why should a perfectly beautiful wonderful child lose it's life because the mother and father are irresponsible. If people don't want to get pregnant don't have sex. If your going to have sex be responsible. I have 4 kids all girls and not one of them was an accident. When we didn't want children we didn't get pregnant. It's very simple. Be responsible. You want to go out get drunk, party. or what ever and(choose to be irresponsible)and get pregnant live with the consequences. Don't kill babies because your irresponsible. I totally agree. I'm sure accidents do happen, but none have ever happened to me. I've gotten pregnant only when I've wanted to. It's so easy not to get pregnant, if you try not to! Condoms work, for those who use them right! Then there's birth control pills... And for those who get sick from the pill, there are low-estrogen level pills (such as Ortho-Tri-Cyclen Lo) which won't make you sick because it has fewer side effects.
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Post by darkmjh1 on Jul 16, 2008 11:14:44 GMT -5
Well remember before abortion became legal all of the illegal abortions that either destory the woman's body or killed her! So i guess i'd have to i'm pro-abortion except i agree with barack obama try more family planning educate before a woman or teeenage becames pregant to hopefully make an abortion not neccessary!!!!
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Post by biglinmarshall on Sept 19, 2008 18:19:46 GMT -5
I am pro-life but not a fanatic. I'd allow abortions if the mother's life is at risk or if the pregnancy arose as the result of rape or incest.
I HATE what they call 'social abortions.' In Britain the MAJORITY of abortions are now carried out on women having their THIRD or more termination.
It's NOT supposed to be a form of contraception.
Why don't they use birth control instead?
No, I'm NOT a Catholic (my Dad's an Ulster Presbterian) and yes, I DO have some moral right to speak on this issue because my doctor advised me when I was pregnant with my first child to have an abortion because he was going to be born with genetic defects.
I chose to have my son and love him dearly. I had a terrible pregnancy and nearly died.
Abortion ought to be a desperate last expedient, NOT a form of birth control.
The ONLY difference between abortion and infanticide is the time element.
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Post by pumpkinpie on Sept 19, 2008 19:49:28 GMT -5
I am pro-life but not a fanatic. I'd allow abortions if the mother's life is at risk or if the pregnancy arose as the result of rape or incest. I HATE what they call 'social abortions.' In Britain the MAJORITY of abortions are now carried out on women having their THIRD or more termination. It's NOT supposed to be a form of contraception. Why don't they use birth control instead? No, I'm NOT a Catholic (my Dad's an Ulster Presbterian) and yes, I DO have some moral right to speak on this issue because my doctor advised me when I was pregnant with my first child to have an abortion because he was going to be born with genetic defects. I chose to have my son and love him dearly. I had a terrible pregnancy and nearly died. Abortion ought to be a desperate last expedient, NOT a form of birth control. The ONLY difference between abortion and infanticide is the time element. In cases of rape, I can see having an abortion. The people who do it as forms of birth control are murderers if you ask me. That's good that you chose to have your son. I'm sure I would have made the same choice. Is he ok today?
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Post by happyhaddock on Sept 20, 2008 10:20:41 GMT -5
I chose to have my son and love him dearly. I had a terrible pregnancy and nearly died. How would you feel if the state had forced you to have a termination? Why is it different if the state forces you to not have one?
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Post by briseis on Sept 20, 2008 10:25:12 GMT -5
You see I don't understand this concept that it's ok to have an abortion if you have been raped, but not ok if you have been careless ...
Why are the babies who were created as a result of a rape any less special to you, any less deserving of life to you, than any other?
I have a friend with twin girls as a result of a rape, beautiful girls. But even the most 'anti abortion' activists seem to be ok about having those such babies aborted ... Seems contradictory to me ...
I know you will talk of trauma etc and hasn't the woman been through enough etc ... but to me, you are either for abortion or you are not. If you preach about how all babies should have a right to live, and show clips of 8 week old fetuses in the womb to guilt trip the public into signing that they are anti abortion, and discuss how horrific abortion is, then you contradict yourself wildly if you claim that it depends on the circumstance, if you would support it in some cases, but not in others.
To me, this situation is similar to the death penalty; if you would agree with the death penalty even in 1 case out a million, you are Pro death penalty. If you claim to be Anti death penalty, it means the death penalty is an absolute NO NO in ALL cases.
So why oh why is the abortion topic so different? Why do these 'Anti abortion' activists try to slip the net when it comes to rape?
If you support the abortion of a baby in ANY circumstance, to me, you are Pro abortion, whether you like it or not. I appreciate that rape is traumatic (I have been raped myself) and I know it would have been my nightmare to become pregnant as a result of that, but like it or not, human reproduction is exactly the same in all cases; the unborn babies as a result of a rape are exactly the same and just as innocent as the unborn babies as a result of carelessless. They too would like to be born ... so tell me, why is it ok to kill them, if you are so firmly against abortion on account of it being cruel, horrific and unjust to the foetus?
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Post by pumpkinpie on Sept 20, 2008 14:28:46 GMT -5
You see I don't understand this concept that it's ok to have an abortion if you have been raped, but not ok if you have been careless ... Why are the babies who were created as a result of a rape any less special to you, any less deserving of life to you, than any other? I have a friend with twin girls as a result of a rape, beautiful girls. But even the most 'anti abortion' activists seem to be ok about having those such babies aborted ... Seems contradictory to me ... I know you will talk of trauma etc and hasn't the woman been through enough etc ... but to me, you are either for abortion or you are not. If you preach about how all babies should have a right to live, and show clips of 8 week old fetuses in the womb to guilt trip the public into signing that they are anti abortion, and discuss how horrific abortion is, then you contradict yourself wildly if you claim that it depends on the circumstance, if you would support it in some cases, but not in others. To me, this situation is similar to the death penalty; if you would agree with the death penalty even in 1 case out a million, you are Pro death penalty. If you claim to be Anti death penalty, it means the death penalty is an absolute NO NO in ALL cases. So why oh why is the abortion topic so different? Why do these 'Anti abortion' activists try to slip the net when it comes to rape? If you support the abortion of a baby in ANY circumstance, to me, you are Pro abortion, whether you like it or not. I appreciate that rape is traumatic (I have been raped myself) and I know it would have been my nightmare to become pregnant as a result of that, but like it or not, human reproduction is exactly the same in all cases; the unborn babies as a result of a rape are exactly the same and just as innocent as the unborn babies as a result of carelessless. They too would like to be born ... so tell me, why is it ok to kill them, if you are so firmly against abortion on account of it being cruel, horrific and unjust to the foetus? Because being raped is a crime in itself. It wasn't suppose to happen and didn't accidentally happen. It wasn't even an act of the victim's choice. It was a forced act that resulted in a forced baby. A whole lot less fair that is than someone having casual sex without using protection. If you want to call me pro abortion for supporting it in rape cases, call me whatever you want.
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Post by briseis on Sept 20, 2008 15:47:22 GMT -5
Pumpkinpie,
I don't mean to upset you. But it is a good point. And I know what rape is. I've been through it myself. I just don't see how that changes anyones opinion if they are so against abortion is all. Do 2 wrongs make a right? Rape is a crime, but in many peoples opinions so is abortion. Why should it be a crime in some cases but not in others? I know there is a massive difference in circumstances. But the act of aborting a baby is still the same.
You speak that it's not 'fair' to tell a woman whose been raped she can't have an abortion. What has that got to do with the abortion argument? What about the baby? What about it's rights? What about what's fair on it? Isn't that what the Anti abortion topic is all about? The rights of the unborn baby to live? Or is it now the rights of certain unborn babies? You haven't answered my question on that, and I doubt you can. Because if I were you, nor could I.
And there are such cases where the condom breaks (that's how my sister got pregnant with her son) or where the Pill doesn't work effectively (my son was conceived when I was on the Pill; it later emerged that the Pill I was on was less effective that it should be, that there were quite a few reports of women getting pregnant on it) No contraception is foolproof. There is no 100% guarantee. So what about those cases? Where the woman did use protection but got pregnant anyway? Should they be allowed an abortion?
I see a slippery slope ... There is always a slippery slope in such cases as these. Same as the death penalty. It's either ok to kill convicts or it's not. To me, it's not ok. It's never ok.
I understand your sentiment, but saying it's ok for some women to have an abortion but not others is too risky and never ever works. It's either ok or it's not. It's either legal or it's not. You're either Pro or Anti, same as the death penalty. It can't be partially legal. It doesn't work that way, sadly.
I can understand why you feel obliged to say it's ok for rape victims. I agree with you. I think it's ok for rape victims too, and for everyone else, I think it's ok too. Providing it's done before 9 weeks gestation, whereby the woman can take an abortion pill, rather than undergo invasive surgery. I don't like abortion. I would never have an abortion. The act of invasive surgery is disgusting. I don't even like the idea of women taking a pill to terminate a pregnancy. But, I feel that women should have that right to decide whether to go through an unwanted pregnancy or not at the beginning of her pregnancy.
I wish we lived in a perfect world where rape didn't happen, and contraception was foolproof, and girls didn't go round having unprotected sex. I wish every pregnancy was wanted. I'd like to see abortion rates go down. But I can't say it should be illegal, because to say that would mean it would be illegal to all women, including rape victims and including women who used protection but got pregnant anyway ... I also think it's unfair to expect a young teenager to go through an unwanted pregnancy. But this is my opinion, like it or not.
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Post by biglinmarshall on Sept 20, 2008 15:53:46 GMT -5
In the first place, I've almost been raped myself and my husband IS a rape victim.
Secondly, I did NOT say that I would WANT kids conceived as the result of rape or incest to be aborted. All I'm saying is I'd UNDERSTAND it and NOT condemn the mother if she chose to do that.
I honestly don't know WHAT I'd do myself; I'm 30 years old so I'm still fertile. My gut instinct is that I'd have the kids but I just don't condemn women who choose not to in THOSE sets of circumstances, that's all.
I don't like war but sometimes it's impossible to avoid; I don't like killing but sometimes it's necessary.
Moral dilemmas are always complex and trying to make us all into a 'one size fits all' sort of moral system just leads to a world like the Taliban or fundamentalist Christians want.
I'd HATE to live in a world like that myself.
Sometimes compassion means having to choose the lesser of two evils, that's all.
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