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Post by BentyProDP on May 13, 2005 13:14:02 GMT -5
Benty - I would want the killer locked up in a little cell for life with no freedom and no chance of parole. Whatever he can do in that little tiny cell smaller than my little bathroom; let him do. I don't care; and I wouldn't spend my time thinking about it. If my child was bad; I would punish them right away (not by hitting because consistently; I don't believe hitting stops hitting, or yelling stops yelling, or killing stops killing.) I would also like to punish the killers right away by handing down and letting them begin their life without parole sentence so everyone can forget about them. I've said that elsewhere - not sure if it was this thread or not. And I think Joy addressed your question, and the answer was - all at different times, depending on the person - please go and re read and you will find her answer. Its like your anger is blinding you; and not only do you refuse to think about others points; but you are not even able to see them on the page. Based on my quotes on this board and the Pro board, I will not argue the point that my anger can be blinding at times. I believe it is clinically called "response of human emotion"...technically speaking of course. Now to the meat of the statement you made....Let's do some real soul searching here. Have you ever done brain surgery? If not would you be able to discuss on an intellengent level all of the things related to brain surgery? Have you ever lost a mother, brother, sister, child, or any other person you truly loved to a violent murder ? Then how can you profess to know what true anger or the emotions me and my family have lived with? Do you know how it feels to win a gold medal at the Olympics? If not, you couldn't honestly describe what it feels like, because you havent expereineced it... So before you take off on someone and tell them what is wrong with them, try imagining being in thier shoes. Take a mental picture of the peson you love most in this world, Now watch them being brutalized, screaming in the worst pain ever, and then watch their neck being snapped and tell me what you feel...But when it really happens, take that same emotion and multiply it times a few billion and you might understand.... When I hear of people being "mistreated" or uncomfortable or saying they have been rehabilitated because they found Jesus, and the people that support these murderers just conviently forget what the murderer did to get into prison it makes me want to shake some sense into them and tell them thier priorities in life are seriously impaired...The life compassion they feel for a murderer is misdirected. When someone loses a loved one, that pain doesn't ever go away or get better, but the murdererer is sitting in a cell, eating 3 meals a day, and many of lifes other pleasures we take for granted, but the VICTIM is in a box, underneath 6 feet of dirt....forever...
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Post by CCADP on May 13, 2005 13:24:28 GMT -5
Benty - of course I can never understand being in that position; and I hope that I never have to - and that no other human ever has to - go through what you and your family have endured. Maybe that came off a little smartassed I am sorry if it did; I just though that you were willfully ignoring people who were trying as best they could to answer.... We can never be the person who lost the loved one, we can never be the disturbed or angry mind that caused the killing; we can never really walk in anyones shoes. All we can do is try to hear each other. I don't think that its easy for you to hear that the victims are not forgotten in all of this. Maybe their names are not mentioned enough; maybe they should be mentioned more. I personally think there would be a lot more true remorse from DR prisoners if they were doing life and not sentenced to death - and here's why - this is my thought from what I have seen and heard from DR prisoners - none of them have said this; its just my own little observation/ drugstore psychology thing. And here I talk about the ones that are institutionalized; true jail types; feel that they owe society nothing etc. often they were brought up with a scamming mentality or a give what you get mentality. I think some of these killers; feel that no matter how heinous and horrible the crime; no matter who they murdered so horribly; well - they've been convicted; they will pay with their life; so; a sociopath with no real understanding could think; I don't have to apologize; I'm paying my bill. So they go to the grave thinking they have made things right by paying with their death. Well the family; as you mentioned, is still left to deal with their loss; their pain, the loss of their sense of safety and trust... but the prisoner - not sorry at all - he thinks he got us; we got him back; its all fair. We've tought him nothing, shown nothing about the value of human life. Let him sit there; and think about the fact that he can never ever give back what he has taken; and the enormity of that. I never thought of that til I worked with some prisoners; cause my mind doesn't work that way but it makes sense to an institutionalized person who doesn't feel a part of society. also benty... hold on ...
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Post by CCADP on May 13, 2005 13:28:29 GMT -5
I just thought I'd post this; from my posting on another thread - this is making me think of that again.
I found it really striking in watching the Gary Ridgeway / Green River killer trial - at sentencing (no death penalty though he killed over 50 women while there are prisoners on DR for a shooting in a robbery) he sat stoic; uncaring; unmoved when victims families yelled and cried; threatened him, called him every name in the book etc. But when one man stood up calmly and said his religious convictions taught him to forgive; and though Ridgway made it hard to do that; this man (father of a murdered girl) believed that God told you to forgive all; not just those that its easy to forgive; he said "you make it difficult to do that; but, you are forgiven sir" Ridgways chin started to tremble; and he started bawling..... (this man was pro DP) but I was struck by the fact that this is the only thing that got a reaction - Dave said its cause he knew he didn't deserve that forgiveness.
So that shows him even more what a horrible thing he has done and what he has become - when compared to the good people in the world that he hurt. To kill him back just shows him that we are stronger, but that we also think its ok to kill someone we don't like or who gets in our way.
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Post by truth1 on May 13, 2005 14:56:04 GMT -5
truth - yes you're right. Pursley was not nice to the man he brutally murdered.... Point - again? Hear that one every day but I'm not sure what the point is that it proves. Like we've said a billion times... We've agreed on the fact that a horrible crime was committed and someone lost their lives in a terrible manner; they are lost to us and will never be here again; along with all the good they could have done in the world - now we are debating the punishment. You guys can only say THEY ARE BAD SO LETS DO BAD THINGS TO THEM. Sorry, most of us don't buy it. By the way Benty I hear from prisoners a lot that they would much prefer a death sentence than life - and as Ross just proved some of them ain't just talking. I have heard of people committing murders just to get on death row - or be sentenced to death. But I have never ever ever ever heard of someone committing murder cause they wanted to be locked in a box with little human contact for the rest of their lives... Talk about hearing something every day. This is all you have: "we are better than that". I have provided you with information regarding the benefits of execution. You dismissed them as invalid. Your only point was: "executions are not nice". You call that a powerful statement?
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Post by truth1 on May 13, 2005 14:58:40 GMT -5
U treat them like animals, they will treat u the same. U treat m normally, most of them treat u normally. I'm not talking about all prisons and not talking about GPO. A death sentence doesn't mean putting someone in a concrete box under these physical and physiological conditions. Grz catz Locking them up with nothing to do is animalistic, but killing someone in cold blood isn't? I don't get it. They should have thought about that before they committed murder.
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Post by CCADP on May 13, 2005 15:18:01 GMT -5
truth - try to understand this : YES KILLING IS WRONG. Show me where I said it isn't. Then I will respond to the rest.
Anyone reading these threads can see what you have said; and what we have said; and lets let the readers decide who has the better arguments. We've covered lots and lots of different ground here; truth and anyone can see we have backed up every thing we have said. Its you that just can't get past - but but but but but but - he did baaaad things!! He's baaaaaaad.
We get it. We got it. Bad. Horrible. Heinous.
We're still against killing him back. And if thats way beyond your understanding; then I am fast coming to the conclusion that its not a worthy debate.
Your agenda is showing again.
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Post by CCADP on May 13, 2005 15:34:14 GMT -5
Since you accuse me of saying the same thing over and over (NOT true - read all my posts) - I thought I'd look over the record of some of yours. You've made 113 posts so far - and of those 21 that I can find offhand; contained a simple argument that didn't do much more than point out what a bad guy the DR prisoner is; or what a terrible crime he committed. You said to me " Talk about hearing something every day. This is all you have: "we are better than that". I have provided you with information regarding the benefits of execution. You dismissed them as invalid." - I looked over; trying to find the benefits - this is what I found most of your argument to be based on; just as I remember it. : He was not some "sweet, caring individual". He may have been nice to some people; however Mr. Robert Earl Cook was not one of them. (the victim) He picked the path for himself when he took a life. Plain and simple....they committed murder. If anyone is cold and cruel it is the murderers of innocent people. Remember, you are taking the word of people that were so dangerous and vicious that they had to be removed from society. But there is a difference between what the victims family and the inmates family are going through. The victim was senselessly murdered by another person. The murderer is going to be executed for that crime. The victim was unable to prevent the cause of his death while the murderer WAS able to prevent the cause of his. Honestly, everyone knows that prison is not a nice place and some of the guards "abuse" prisoners. Most of the inmates in there knew that before they committed their crimes. The "bad" people are people that have the mental capacity to shoot someone in the head after robbing them, or stab someone 50 times. In the Weiler home, Allen Lee Davis attacked Nancy Weiler, 37, who at the time was three months pregnant with the family's third child. Davis bludgeoned Mrs. Weiler -- who was the corresponding secretary of the PTA at her children's school -- so severely that she was barely recognizable when police found her body Talk about getting real? This a-hole killed 3 people without mercy. He took a man's entire family away from him. He tied up a 10 year old girl and SHOT HER IN THE FACE! In my opinion, he deserved what he received. I do not have any compassion for scum like that. Actually, I think child molesters should receive the death penalty. But, remember, the people I was talking about are people that were 100% guilty of capital murder They knew what they were risking and what the consequences were. The people on death row get executed (legal) because they murdered (illegal) someone. I am for the death penalty. Not just for murderers, but rapists and child molesters as well. I believe the death penalty is 10% a deterrant and 90 % revenge. I don't think it is a good idea to take the words of a multiple felon at face value. I think Frank got exactly what he deserved. Why feel sorry for him? This guy was the "worst of the worst". He died the same way he lived--violent. He was a violent person. Even his wife said he was not nice. That is his wife! Someone that loved him! He got what he deserved. He molested mentally ill and disabled children? That "man" needs to die a slow and painful death. Nope. The penalty for what he did is pain. You are right--I do have alot of anger when it comes to rapists and child molesters. They are horrible and evil people that do not deserve to breathe the air we breathe. Locking them up with nothing to do is animalistic, but killing someone in cold blood isn't? They should have thought about that before they committed murder. You seeing a theme here? NEW ARGUMENT PLEASE. We all know about the heinous crimes. How many different ways can you try to make the same point?
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Post by tulla63 on May 13, 2005 15:36:29 GMT -5
OK. We all know that once a person is dead, there is nothing we can do to bring him back again. There's just one thing I don't quite understand with what you're saying: "or his loved ones stop the pain in their hearts, then I'd say he paid. First off: There are so many things I want to answer to, but I've been moving furnitures all day. I'm moving, but I'm trying the best I can to comment anyway. I hope for your understanding. Also, if I should accidentially mention something that has been mentioned before me, the fact that I've been busy is the reason for that. Please bear with me. I have one question to what you are saying here. Isn't it so that we don't have any other choice than to accept that you can only punish so much? And that death is still the ultimate punishment? Also, and I might have misunderstood the whole thing: Most people like yourself say that an execution helps them to bring closure. If the execution doesn't bring the person back, neither can it bring closure to those who are grieving, then why not rather lock them up for life? I have no comment, as I don't have the slightest idea as to what you are talking about. Death supporters If you have any ideas as to how to bring them back from death, feel free to share it with us any time! Who said they should be forgotten? Please tell me!! I sure will have a conversation with that idiot. Just tell me, and I'll take care of that right away! What a bad idea?!? Who suggested that? Of course!! However, it isn't so that the death penalty is the only penalty there is. Who? I never knew this person. I undestand you are talking about Lonnie Pursley though. He asked for forgiveness. That was wether you like it or not the only thing he could have done in that situation. Aside from that, I am trying to comfort his wife the best I can, but that might also be an unforgivable crime to you from what I know. I never knew Lonnie. I would have a major problem living next door to a murderer of course, but murderers aren't supposed to live in any other neighborhoods than prisons for the rest of their lives anyway, so I don't need to worry about it. Turid
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Post by tulla63 on May 13, 2005 15:49:00 GMT -5
You know, I know that inmates are not "innocent" when it comes to cell extractions at times. There are some that do bring it on themselves, for whatever reasons. I have heard many ranging from I didn't get my coffee this morning, the guy next door needs medical help and the inmate makes enough noise to bring the guards down, to protesting to mentally ill patients that have lost it and are violent and hurting themselves in the cell and they have to go in to protect him. WHAT I DO object to though, and this is why they started filming cell extractions is when the inmate has been SUBDUED, the guards continue the assault. No matter what made the guards do the run in, once that inmate has been subdued and cuffed.... THE ATTACK STOPS and this does not happen a lot. Joy, I was talking about ABUSE. Not use of force, which may be necessary at times. There's a difference, Love, Turid
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Post by tulla63 on May 13, 2005 16:12:18 GMT -5
I sure don't envy you your job, but I'm glad somebody is doing it! That said: I've been touch with a few prisoners lately, who tell me about procedures which promote such animalistic behavior. This is not meant as an excuse!! Just an explanation to what might have happened before you got there. One example is the well known: "Sit and Fetch" procedure. A guard will shout "Sit and Fetch" to an inmate for him to feel like a dog if he wants food. The CO's jobs is to make sure these prisoners are staying where they're supposed to be, and that they're not hurting each other and the staff there. But when staff treats them (in some instances) as less than animals, what else can you expect? If you (I don't mean "you", but "anyone") treat a person like a dog long enough, you will see this type of animalistic behavior.
And I guess that is the only way staff can deal with this problem aside from making sure they're trying to treat the inmates as respectfully as the can - that is a two ways thing though, but I can't see any other solution (when everything else has been tried), than to put them in special wings. What also has me wondering, is how some inmates tell me: "This CO is OK, this one is a nice guy", but this is not, if the CO's don't at all - ever - has an OK relationship with the inmate - despite the fact that one is inmate and the other CO, wonder why they tell me who they like and who they dislike?..... It's not so - and you should know that much better than I, that inmates and CO's are NOT always enemies!!
Well - this story really angered me. I agree with you, and I do not understand why your employer didn't even support you. You do have a really touch job, and I am glad somebody is willing to do it. I just wish more CO's were willing to at least consider the inmates as human beings and treat them with the respect any human being is entitled to.
And I do think that when prisoners are being treated as animals, as I know happens - the CO's will experience animialistic behavior back.
You sure do not sound like one of those, and I hope everything is well with you now and that your health is fine again.
Take care.
Love, Turid
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jj
New Arrival
Posts: 5
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Post by jj on May 13, 2005 16:48:09 GMT -5
Joy, I was talking about ABUSE. Not use of force, which may be necessary at times. There's a difference, Love, Turid Sorry, I guess I got off track. I was replying to the use of force tapes. However, we all know that abuse does happen after the guys are cuffed and are being taken to the shower and rec. Then, the guards justify slamming someone to the ground by saying the inmate cussed him out. The inmate is cuffed and being escorted by two guards? ?
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Post by tulla63 on May 13, 2005 18:19:04 GMT -5
Sorry, I guess I got off track. I was replying to the use of force tapes. However, we all know that abuse does happen after the guys are cuffed and are being taken to the shower and rec. Then, the guards justify slamming someone to the ground by saying the inmate cussed him out. The inmate is cuffed and being escorted by two guards? ? Right. That was what I meant when I talked about ABUSE. Which is quite different! Love, Turid
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Post by oztash on May 14, 2005 5:48:15 GMT -5
We dont have the dp here in Australia, and yes we are way to lenient on crims, but we dont have a quater of the violence or murder of the USA... So I guess the dp must be a really good deterant???
Wake up, get rid of the guns, get rid b ush, get rid of the dp....Cause its not working....
Tasha
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Post by tulla63 on May 14, 2005 5:54:45 GMT -5
I take it that was ironically meant? If so - you're making a really good point! Love, Turid
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Post by truth1 on May 16, 2005 7:54:48 GMT -5
We've covered lots and lots of different ground here; truth and anyone can see we have backed up every thing we have said. Its you that just can't get past - but but but but but but - he did baaaad things!! He's baaaaaaad. You have backed everything up? How? How can you back up, "executions are bad, we are better than that"? How? That is an emotional argument based purely on opinion. You cannot deny that. The pro side is also emotional; however, the pro argument has some very compelling facts. I have provided you with those facts and you ignored them.
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