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Post by briseis on Sept 12, 2009 17:31:49 GMT -5
Hi Lin,
Thank you. Obviously, I like my moniker too.
I quite agree that statistics may only provide limited information, but it is still valuable information nonetheless and must be addressed.
Similar to yourself, the man in my life is also a Pro and I am an Anti. But his argument is oddly financial, which I find counterproductive considering the vast expense the lengthy appeal process involved with capital punishment causes. In Texas, a death penalty case costs on average - $2.3 million a year, which is 3 times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell in maximum security for 40 years. But I digress. My man believes in outdated and hasty methods of dealing with criminals. Methinks he reads too much Geoffrey Abbott. But never mind.
My reasons for being Anti are many but my main concern is that I do believe supporters of this punishment lose their moral high ground in their disgust of the act of murder when they support execution, which, while not being the same in that the latter is lawful is nonetheless still the killing of a fellow human being and I cannot condone that; my favour is with life imprisonment, life meaning life.
I don't mean to digress from the DP issue, but I believe from memory you are also from the UK and I'd be interested in how you find British prison systems in comparison with American prisons?
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Post by biglinmarshall on Sept 22, 2009 19:46:36 GMT -5
Hi Briseis
Sorry it took me so long to respond to your post but I've been manically busy for some time and haven't had time to visit here, let alone post!
I am from the UK and I think that in general British prisons are better than those in the US although I cannot speak from personal experience about the American ones as, although I've visited the country five times and have American friends, I've not yet visited a US prison!
There are good things about prisons in America from which we could learn but on the other hand there are far more things that the US could learn from us.
I am often saddened when I see people that I otherwise respect calling out for sadistic punishments against prisoners, denial of their human rights, and generally dehumanising them.
On the one hand, as a wowie pro who also visits prison inmates and corresponds with others, I get called soft on crime by the fry circus brigade.
On the other, as someone who supports the death penalty for the worst murderers, the return of corporal punishment for crimes of violence and castration for rapists and paedophiles, I get called a heartless ghoul by many sizzle circus antis.
Like with so many things in life, it's hard taking a moderate, centrist position when, to use the words of Yeats, 'the best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.'
Mercifully my passion and intensity are still there and I try to fight for what I see as being liberal, humane values against the tide of extremism from right and left.
(Sorry, I'm rambling!)
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Post by elle66 on Apr 5, 2010 15:51:48 GMT -5
I hope that I make some sense to all of you when I explain this. I used to believe in the death penalty and am still in the middle regarding it. After seeing the mistakes that have been made in the US, the corrupt people that are supposed to be following the rules of the justice system, the power hungry and wrong motives; I am having some difficulty believing it in anymore. Anyone could be at the wrong place at the wrong time and be convicted of something that happened simply because they were at the scene where the crime took place. It is in addition what happens after that where the truth is vulnerable to those who don't care about providing the proper and correct evidence. The lawyers for the cases that I read about appear corrupt and lazy and don't represent their clients as they should. If you are poor, then you are done. I would not want to have a justice system like that. The person who hurt me only got 6 years less a day for a crime against children. At that time I was a child. It was indeed a slap in the face to see that judgment come to pass in the Canadian system. That is why I did believe in the death penalty because I knew his kind of crime was reported to be something that would repeat time and time again. Other lives would continue to be affected by him. If he hadn't died in prison for medical reasons, I may have still had a hard time with this. Bottom line, my concerns are for those whose cases need more investigation that have reasonable doubt. The cases I have been studying are on the net. Just look at death row in the USA 2010. I'll supply the link: www.amnestyusa.org/death-penalty/pending-executions/page.do?id=1011587When you read about some of these people, it makes you wonder what kind of evidence was presented to warrant that they were guilty of the crime. See for yourself if you haven't already.
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Post by elle66 on Apr 5, 2010 15:58:51 GMT -5
Me again, I urge you to read up on all of the people on this link.
I really do find it all very sad. It is after all a life no matter how you explain it. It really does boil down to that. That is why I am increasingly doubting my stand on the death penalty now. Rehabilitation if possible is the key and indeed life sentences to those who can not be rehabilitated.
After thinking more about this too, I don't know if I would have been satisfied seeing my perpetrator put to death. That is hard to even say but regardless, I am who I am today because of it. I did survive.
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Post by pumpkinpie on Apr 5, 2010 22:41:58 GMT -5
I hope that I make some sense to all of you when I explain this. I used to believe in the death penalty and am still in the middle regarding it. After seeing the mistakes that have been made in the US, the corrupt people that are supposed to be following the rules of the justice system, the power hungry and wrong motives; I am having some difficulty believing it in anymore. Anyone could be at the wrong place at the wrong time and be convicted of something that happened simply because they were at the scene where the crime took place. It is in addition what happens after that where the truth is vulnerable to those who don't care about providing the proper and correct evidence. The lawyers for the cases that I read about appear corrupt and lazy and don't represent their clients as they should. If you are poor, then you are done. I would not want to have a justice system like that. The person who hurt me only got 6 years less a day for a crime against children. At that time I was a child. It was indeed a slap in the face to see that judgment come to pass in the Canadian system. That is why I did believe in the death penalty because I knew his kind of crime was reported to be something that would repeat time and time again. Other lives would continue to be affected by him. If he hadn't died in prison for medical reasons, I may have still had a hard time with this. Bottom line, my concerns are for those whose cases need more investigation that have reasonable doubt. The cases I have been studying are on the net. Just look at death row in the USA 2010. I'll supply the link: www.amnestyusa.org/death-penalty/pending-executions/page.do?id=1011587When you read about some of these people, it makes you wonder what kind of evidence was presented to warrant that they were guilty of the crime. See for yourself if you haven't already. I agree elle! Everything you've just pointed out has crossed my mind as well, which is why I remain opposed to the death penalty. Thank you so much though for bringing up these excellent facts again, which sadly go ignored all too often. Welcome!
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Post by elle66 on Apr 11, 2010 0:54:48 GMT -5
Thank you for the welcome Pumpkinpie. I have been wrestling with this subject for a while and after doing my own research I have concluded the following:
That I believe in rehabilitation and reform. I am not saying that this is the answer as a deterrent to committing a crime because I don't believe there is one. There will always be someone who will replace the murderer, the drug dealer, the thief. If you can't rehabilitate some if not all of these people and look at prevention, then no one wins. No one is winning now.
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Post by happyhaddock on Apr 11, 2010 18:57:12 GMT -5
But there are ways to reduce crime. The Clinton administration was very successful at this. Unfortunately the Bush administration gutted the funds for these programs and crime rose as a result. See Real ways to reduce violent crimes for a report on this.
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Post by arizonavet on Dec 28, 2010 15:54:47 GMT -5
My father was a Holocaust survivor. You would think he'd be pro-DP. He wasn't. He felt the DP bought us down to the level of the Nazis. The DP is racist and Fascist. So if we imprison criminals, found guilty of the crime of false imprisonment... does that make us as guilty as the criminal? If Adolf Hitler had been executed after the Munich Putsch instead of imprisoned... Your father & hundreds of thousands other innocents would have lived so see a natural death...as they deserved. Just curious, how is the execution of people of all races...."racist"?
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Post by arizonavet on Dec 28, 2010 16:00:46 GMT -5
Hi Briseis Sorry it took me so long to respond to your post but I've been manically busy for some time and haven't had time to visit here, let alone post! I am from the UK and I think that in general British prisons are better than those in the US although I cannot speak from personal experience about the American ones as, although I've visited the country five times and have American friends, I've not yet visited a US prison! There are good things about prisons in America from which we could learn but on the other hand there are far more things that the US could learn from us. I am often saddened when I see people that I otherwise respect calling out for sadistic punishments against prisoners, denial of their human rights, and generally dehumanising them. On the one hand, as a wowie pro who also visits prison inmates and corresponds with others, I get called soft on crime by the fry circus brigade. On the other, as someone who supports the death penalty for the worst murderers, the return of corporal punishment for crimes of violence and castration for rapists and paedophiles, I get called a heartless ghoul by many sizzle circus antis. Like with so many things in life, it's hard taking a moderate, centrist position when, to use the words of Yeats, 'the best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.' Mercifully my passion and intensity are still there and I try to fight for what I see as being liberal, humane values against the tide of extremism from right and left. (Sorry, I'm rambling!) Linda, I've always liked & respected you.....I honestly didn't feel that we basically agreed. We actually do......it's "agreement day".... "sizzle circus anti"? You mean anti's who state that IF they were pro's...they'd be for executing all convicted murderers? I understand anti's better than I do that blood thirsty philosophy, from either side.
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