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Post by ♥Eva♥ on Sept 23, 2008 23:22:01 GMT -5
It amazes me that some antis try to claim that executions in the US are identical to the horrible sadistic murders which warranted these executions! How many murder victims had a chance to appeal ?, Have visitors? Say good bye to their family, friends and relatives? Be spared cruel and unusual punishment?It just amazes me that some antis ( not all ) believe both acts are identical!
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Post by biglinmarshall on Sept 24, 2008 13:51:49 GMT -5
Well, Eva, sadly there are people on both sides of the DP fence who are arrogant, extreme, abusive, fanatical, dishonest and just plain loopers.
As soon as anyone equates execution with murder I know exactly the type of closed mindset they suffer from, just as as soon as any pro starts dehumanising prisoners I know the same.
Apart from anything else, it shows right away that you've lost the argument before you've even started.
There are LOTS of GOOD arguments against the death penalty just as there are LOTS in favour of it.
Unfortunately, the MAJORITY of both pros and antis seem to prefer the bad arguments which is rather sad.
Thanks for your kind words, by the way. I think you sound like a really nice person who will help liven things up here too!
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Post by happyhaddock on Sept 25, 2008 12:03:28 GMT -5
It amazes me that some antis try to claim that executions in the US are identical to the horrible sadistic murders which warranted these executions! How many murder victims had a chance to appeal ?, Have visitors? Say good bye to their family, friends and relatives? Be spared cruel and unusual punishment? It just amazes me that some antis ( not all ) believe both acts are identical! Most murders are carried out in the heat of passion. Many of the rest are a sudden, but short lived, surprise to the victims. Name me one case where someone was ripped from the world, locked up in a cement cage for years, and reminded daily that in 5, or 10, or 15 or 20 years they would be murdered, but also told that there was some chance they would not be killed but would remain in the cage for life. Only the state does that.
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Post by happyhaddock on Oct 29, 2008 11:12:23 GMT -5
Why are you even trying to defend their actions? If you can't argue like a grown up leave this board. I have never defended the actions of any criminal. I merely point out that we now know that humans are not capable of getting the facts right sufficiently for a penalty that requires god-like perfection. I also point out that the few countries, including the USA, which have this penalty are the worst offenders in terms of incompetence and bias. In the USA racial bias is so widespread that the DP is beyond their ability to use in anything like a fair and honest way. Corrupt police and prosecutors, biased judges and jurors and incompetent media reporters pollute these cases beyond redemption.
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Post by biglinmarshall on Oct 31, 2008 18:20:15 GMT -5
Why are you even trying to defend their actions? If you can't argue like a grown up leave this board. I have never defended the actions of any criminal. I merely point out that we now know that humans are not capable of getting the facts right sufficiently for a penalty that requires god-like perfection. I also point out that the few countries, including the USA, which have this penalty are the worst offenders in terms of incompetence and bias. In the USA racial bias is so widespread that the DP is beyond their ability to use in anything like a fair and honest way. Corrupt police and prosecutors, biased judges and jurors and incompetent media reporters pollute these cases beyond redemption. If you can't argue like a grown up leave this board. Oh, haddock, it would be so wonderful if you could lead by example in that respect. Even if you could, though, it would still be what my hubby calls an 'argumentem ad hominem' and so logically invalid and also FALSE. You seem to live in a fantasy universe where all criminals are innocent, all judges, prosecutors and cops corrupt racists, all jurors morons, all reporters spivs, anyone who supports the death penalty a sick psycho who just wants to kill people, and a public executioner a murderer. As someone who has been a criminal, a victim of murder, and a juror, I can tell you that you are wrong in all your assumptions. I have met plenty of corrupt cops and many good ones; I've met lawyers who were honest and competent and those who were not; and your logic in making out that it's more or less universal is either a deliberate LIE on your part or else an example of the mashed potato correlation with murder you posted elsewhere. When WILL you get it into your head that the death penalty is NOT murder? When WILL you accept that most criminals are GUILTY? When WILL you realise that most pros are NOT bloothirsty monsters who don't care about guilt or innocence? Maybe if you tried to actually argue rationally instead of just bigging it and boying off all the time you might get somewhere, As it is, I'm really not sure if you're just totally confused or if you just don't care about the truth. I feel like posting one of my famous challenges but I'm not sure if you've got the bottle to respond to it if I did.
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Post by pumpkinpie on Oct 31, 2008 21:04:40 GMT -5
I think we should all be debating like grow ups here and not focusing on putting each other down or attacking one another's beliefs. We are all adults here. None of us want to get put down, so let's debate without putting each other down.
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Post by happyhaddock on Nov 1, 2008 11:02:08 GMT -5
You seem to live in a fantasy universe where all criminals are innocent, all judges, prosecutors and cops corrupt racists, all jurors morons, all reporters spivs, anyone who supports the death penalty a sick psycho who just wants to kill people, and a public executioner a murderer. Point me to any place where I have said that all criminals are innocent. Point m to any place where I have made any of the straw man arguments you offer. You cannot. However your implied claim that the US Justice 'System' is perfect and never makes mistakes, is never corrupt is ludicrous. I offer yet another example of the stunning levels of corruption in the US system: Pro Se Per SeAnd another: Because They're Better Than YouI will continue to criticize until the US at least tries to have a system which does not rely on the corrupt and the incompetent to apply a penalty which requires perfect men for its application. When you can argue your case with example and logic instead of cheap sarcasm feel free to try.
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Post by biglinmarshall on Nov 1, 2008 19:20:58 GMT -5
your implied claim that the US Justice 'System' is perfect and never makes mistakes, is never corrupt is ludicrous.
Where have I EVER claimed anything like that - implied or outright!
All I did was point out that your posts over and over again SEEM to be claiming that there are ridiculously high numbers of innocent people on death row and that IS ludicrous.
I know few more ferocious opponents of the death penalty than Mo-Dawg and yet even she believes that possibly only three current inmates MIGHT be innocent.
I have grave doubts about ONE - Virginia Lazarlere - and I'm also against the execution of Darlie Routier even there there's just the minutest smidgeon of doubt - possibly 1% - about her guilt.
I speak from the heart and not always wisely and if my sense of humour offended you I apologise for that.
All the same, as a woman married to a philosopher you're NEVER going to beat me in any argument based on logic because he's forgotten more about it than you'll ever know!
Execution is NOT murder any more than war is murder.
The execution of an innocent would NOT be murder but in fact MANSLAUGHTER.
I would like to see - if a wrongful execution could be proved - the judge, prosecutor and jury sentenced to LWOP in that event.
Haddock, please stop confusing me with the fry circus pros you're used to who have neither reason nor humanity.
I realise I'm probably confusing you with my pro-inmate rights stance, my fierce committment to innocence and yet my equally fierce committment to the death penalty.
Richard Ramirez is guilty - execute him.
Christa Pike is guilty - execute her.
That's what justice should be about - punishing the guilty and protecting the innocent.
You really HAVE read me wrong.
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Post by mcdude on Nov 2, 2008 5:15:17 GMT -5
Oh Eva!
Claiming that executions are identical to murder is indeed ridiculous, claiming their are no similarities at all is equally as stupid
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Post by mcdude on Nov 2, 2008 10:26:15 GMT -5
It amazes me that some antis try to claim that executions in the US are identical to the horrible sadistic murders which warranted these executions! How many murder victims had a chance to appeal ?, Have visitors? Say good bye to their family, friends and relatives? Be spared cruel and unusual punishment?It just amazes me that some antis ( not all ) believe both acts are identical! are you trolling for members over at crimedebate eva... She asked me to join crimedebate, is she one of the mods there?
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Post by happyhaddock on Nov 2, 2008 12:45:51 GMT -5
All I did was point out that your posts over and over again SEEM to be claiming that there are ridiculously high numbers of innocent people on death row and that IS ludicrous. Straw man. I made no such claim however if you are one of those innocents you may well feel that. I know few more ferocious opponents of the death penalty than Mo-Dawg and yet even she believes that possibly only three current inmates MIGHT be innocent. Scott Peterson was so obviously innocent he is the poster boy for failures. I'm also against the execution of Darlie Routier even there there's just the minutest smidgeon of doubt - possibly 1% - about her guilt. Her conviction was based on emotion, ignoring other possibilities, and a guess about the shape of blood drops. That's more than a smidgen of doubt. All the same, as a woman married to a philosopher you're NEVER going to beat me in any argument based on logic because he's forgotten more about it than you'll ever know! Then why are your failures all due to your faulty logic? Execution is NOT murder any more than war is murder. Both are murder by some definitions. The execution of an innocent would NOT be murder but in fact MANSLAUGHTER. Not in my world. I would like to see - if a wrongful execution could be proved - the judge, prosecutor and jury sentenced to LWOP in that event. And yet the prosecutors usually gets a promotion instead. Haddock, please stop confusing me with the fry circus pros you're used to who have neither reason nor humanity. I oppose all executions because they are mere blood vengeance. There is not a drop of justice in any of them, and no peace for victims.
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Post by biglinmarshall on Nov 2, 2008 18:36:01 GMT -5
I'll get back to you tomorrow, Haddock.
I can see I'm going to have to challenge you but of course you won't rise to the bait!
(My challenges are not any sort of threat by the way - only exercises in open-mindedness which is why I think you'll find them difficult.)
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Post by happyhaddock on Nov 2, 2008 20:34:37 GMT -5
My challenges are not any sort of threat by the way - only exercises in open-mindedness which is why I think you'll find them difficult. Never so far.
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Post by janet on Nov 6, 2008 16:40:22 GMT -5
There is no difference between murder and execution. The preponderance of murders do occur in the heat of passion whether that be domestic or in the commission of another criminal offense.
To suggest that execution is anything other than pre-meditated murder by the state is absurd. To spend many years in a cell with the sword of Damocoles hanging over one's head is torture. It's inconeivable to me how anyone is unable to equate the two acts.
Killing is murder, no matter who carries out the crime.
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dpfs
New Arrival
Death Penalty Fence Sitters
Posts: 6
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Post by dpfs on Nov 8, 2008 9:50:21 GMT -5
There is no difference between murder and execution. Killing is murder, no matter who carries out the crime. I had originally posted this on a pro site. (I'll use wiki for reference, as there is no need to get a better sources for this topic) Many people equate Murder with Homicide, but there is a distinctive difference. The only time homicide can be the same as murder, is when it is criminal homicide. (An example would be what the inmates on DR have committed.) "Homicide refers to the act of killing another human being. ... Homicide is not always an illegal act."Where Murder is: "Murder is the unlawful killing of another human person with malice aforethought, as defined in Common Law countries. Murder is generally distinguished from other forms of homicide by the elements of malice aforethought and the lack of lawful justification"
"Exclusions * Capital punishment ordered by a legitimate court of law as the result of a conviction in a criminal trial with due process for a serious crime."So it would be acceptable to call the death penalty homicide, but as you can clearly see now, it is in no way murder. This is true no matter if you are a Pro or an Anti. When an execution is completed, it is termed as a justified homicide. I don't want to suggest that the people in my next example are the same as the murderers on death row, but it is a good example to examine this further. In Salem during the 1790's 21 or 22 people were executed for witch craft. At the time it was considered justified homicide, we all know (now) that it was not right. So just because something is considered justified homicide, does that make it right ? That (In my belief) is the core of the death penalty debate. In my opinion, I do not like murderers, but I do not think it is right to take their lives, no matter how terrible they are. Ron As a note of interest, 22 (of the 29 or so, charged with witch craft) were pardoned less than 20 years after their original trials, with the last pardon happening in the 1970's. The only reason all were not pardoned at the same time, is that there names were not added to the list (family members moved, etc...).
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