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Post by briseis on Jul 1, 2008 15:34:13 GMT -5
I'm absolutely fascinated with what drives a killer, particularly a serial killer to perform these horrendous acts of evil, especially women, and I've researched into many serial killers looking for some kind of connection, regardless of the period they were born into.
And in my findings, so many of them have been subject to severe trauma, particularly in childhood.
Anna Maria Zwanziger (18th Century) was orphaned by the age of 5, abused by her relatives, and had an alcoholic and absent husband.
Jeanne Weber (19th Century) came from an impoverished, overcrowded family, and also had an alcoholic husband.
Myra Hindley (20th Century) had an abusive father, and was sent from her home and her mother aged 4.
Carol Mary Bundy (20th Century) had a sexually abusive father, and a violent mother who died when she was 14.
Aileen Wuornos (20th Century) had absent parents, was adopted by a sexually abusive and alcoholic family, impregnated as a result of a rape aged 13 and forced to give the child up for adoption, forced to live alone on the streets as a prostitute from the age of 14 where she was repeatedly beaten, raped, and ... ignored.
There are so many tragic stories behind so many killers and serial killers, tragic childhoods bringing forth angry young men and women ... so failed by their families and by their society.
Granted, we all have sad stories to tell, and not all of us become killers. Most of us turn out just fine. But there's a reason some do and some don't. The luckier ones are given chances, hope ...the unlucky ones are left to become more angry with the world. And there's few stores as tragic as Wuornos'.
How closely do you feel these tragic lives relate to the later killings? Evidently, they do relate somewhat. But ... what are we doing as a society to PREVENT this cycle repeating itself? The Death Penalty does nothing to prevent nor deter. It has failed. And it exists purely to spill more blood, and to avenge the lives of the victims.
I know we can look at the smaller picture, and criticise and cast away other human beings, judging them so permanently on what they did, which was evil, no doubt ... But, who here looks at the bigger picture and judges the whole person and what led them to become the 'monsters' they became ... ?
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sdl
New Arrival
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Post by sdl on Jul 2, 2008 2:40:33 GMT -5
 Abuse of alcohol Cocaine usage Insatiable desire to be a dictator. Some of his victims: Gary Graham, Karla Faye Tucker, Bettie Lou Beets. Thousands of Iraqi civilians, including babies. |
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Post by pumpkinpie on Jul 2, 2008 9:28:05 GMT -5
I'm absolutely fascinated with what drives a killer, particularly a serial killer to perform these horrendous acts of evil, especially women, and I've researched into many serial killers looking for some kind of connection, regardless of the period they were born into. And in my findings, so many of them have been subject to severe trauma, particularly in childhood. Anna Maria Zwanziger (18th Century) was orphaned by the age of 5, abused by her relatives, and had an alcoholic and absent husband. Jeanne Weber (19th Century) came from an impoverished, overcrowded family, and also had an alcoholic husband. Myra Hindley (20th Century) had an abusive father, and was sent from her home and her mother aged 4. Carol Mary Bundy (20th Century) had a sexually abusive father, and a violent mother who died when she was 14. Aileen Wuornos (20th Century) had absent parents, was adopted by a sexually abusive and alcoholic family, impregnated as a result of a rape aged 13 and forced to give the child up for adoption, forced to live alone on the streets as a prostitute from the age of 14 where she was repeatedly beaten, raped, and ... ignored. There are so many tragic stories behind these serial killers, tragic childhoods bringing forth angry young men and women ... so failed by their families and by their society Granted, we all have sad stories to tell, and not all of us become serial killers. Most of us turn out just fine. But there's a reason some do and some don't. The luckier ones are given chances, hope ...the unlucky ones are left to become more angry with the world. And there's few stores as tragic as Wuornos'. How closely do you feel these tragic lives relate to the later killings? Evidently, they do relate somewhat. But ... what are we doing as a society to PREVENT this cycle repeating itself? The Death Penalty does nothing to prevent nor deter. It has failed. And it exists purely to spill more blood, and to avenge the lives of the victims. I know we can look at the smaller picture, and criticise and cast away other human beings, judging them so permanently on what they did, which was evil, no doubt ... But, who here looks at the bigger picture and judges the whole person and what led them to become the 'monsters' they became ... ? I do look at the bigger picture. Lately I've been reading books on the case of the green river killer, Gary Ridgway. It is clear to me that this man who was having sex with prostitutes, then killing them in the same way each time, by strangling them, then placing their bodies near the green river, had an addiction. Unlike drugs or alcohol, this was his addiction, and it was a sick one. He was known by others to be a quiet, mild mannered man and held the same job for 30 years. |
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Post by andie on Jul 2, 2008 13:46:32 GMT -5
If you have time, good books to read are " Hunting Humans" by Elliot Leyton and " The Human Predator" by Katherine Ramsland I'm absolutely fascinated with what drives a killer, particularly a serial killer to perform these horrendous acts of evil, |
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Post by levigem on Jul 5, 2008 9:42:11 GMT -5
We in England have had a shocking killing this week where to Frensh students where tighed up and stabed over 250/300 times each then set on fire......Now what i ask is what drives that sort of anger? THe 2 lads would no doubt have died after being stabed a few times and is infact is thought to have happened but then to carry on and stab that amount of times is some thing that i cant understand. The person who did this must have had soooo much anger inside them that its shocking. This person is still out there some place sitting watching or reading about what has happened what are they thinking whats going through thier mind how did they get to this stag in their life?
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Post by briseis on Jul 5, 2008 11:54:37 GMT -5
I'm from Ireland, and have also heard about that shocking double murder. It's a disgrace. To be tied up, tortured, stabbed to death 250 times between them is horrific. God only knows what went through the mind/s of the person/people who killed them.
Regardless of what happened in their past, or what drove them to commit this evil, they should be sentenced to Life Imprisonment in the same conditions as the US. British and Irish prisons seem more like a holiday camp than a place for punishment ...
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Post by happyhaddock on Jul 5, 2008 11:57:05 GMT -5
... British and Irish prisons seem more like a holiday camp than a place for punishment ... The Maze? And Americans prisons are a disgrace - there's no moral justification for torturing prisoners. |
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Post by happyhaddock on Jul 5, 2008 12:02:44 GMT -5
... But, who here looks at the bigger picture and judges the whole person and what led them to become the 'monsters' they became ... ? See Ivan Milat - the "backpacker murderer" in Australia. |
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Post by briseis on Jul 5, 2008 12:11:33 GMT -5
The Maze prison is situated about 8 miles from my house and it was closed down 8 years ago. I'm talking about prisons today, not in the past.
I didn't suggest Death Row conditions. But I am suggesting tougher conditions. I would never suggest torturing prisoners; I would never suggest taking it to that extreme. There has to be a quality of life of course, but they are there to be punished, and punished they should be.
I have studied life in several British prisons and visited prisoners in 3 Irish prisons and none of them had any complaints under the circumstances. From what I have seen, they have better healthcare than I do, they have access to pool tables, psychologists, Digital TV, computer games, free education, comfortable rooms similar to student accomodation, they can wear their own clothes, rather than uniforms.
This, I disapprove of, especially as it's the taxpayer who has to pay for it.
And to top matters off, British prisons have become 'overcrowded' so there's an 'early release programme', where prisoners are released early, and many of them go on to commit more crimes, as they were never punished to begin with, and prison is hardly anything to be afraid of for them. Is it any wonder crime in Britain is going up up up ...
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Post by happyhaddock on Jul 5, 2008 12:32:12 GMT -5
... I didn't suggest Death Row conditions. But I am suggesting tougher conditions. I would never suggest torturing prisoners; I would never suggest taking it to that extreme. There has to be a quality of life of course, but they are there to be punished, and punished they should be. ... I don't believe there is any evidence that harsh treatment reduces recidivism. In fact the result seems to be that some decide they'd rather kill than be sent back; and others decide to take revenge on society for what was done to them. Neither is a good outcome. |
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Post by briseis on Jul 5, 2008 13:23:03 GMT -5
I don't recall using the words 'harsh treatment'. I suggested tougher conditions. Uniforms, no digital TV, no computer games, no pool tables; they should have to do daily 'chores', and have to earn their keep as best they can, cells should look like cells, rather than student accommodation ... It's prison. What else should prisoners expect? They have committed criminal offenses, some of which are horrific, and deserve punishment, not access to a free and easy life, and from what I have seen in Britain and Ireland, that is exactly what it is. There are people who would prefer to be in prison here, who would commit crimes, just to get to prison. So treating them like they are currently being treated here is making the situation worse as well. The purpose of prison is to DETER crime. So if it is to do that, it shouldn't be a pleasant place to be, and if it is to be unpleasant then privileges like their own clothes, pool tables, computer games, digital TV etc should be removed. Death Row conditions are horrific, prisons over here are more like holiday camps. We need a MIDDLE GROUND, where the inmate is adequately punished for their offenses AND eventually rehabilitated so that if and when they are released, we are not releasing angry men and women into society, rather remorseful people who wish to live an honest life. Anyway! Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.  |
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Post by happyhaddock on Jul 6, 2008 13:28:14 GMT -5
I don't recall using the words 'harsh treatment'. I suggested tougher conditions. Uniforms, no digital TV, no computer games, no pool tables; they should have to do daily 'chores', and have to earn their keep as best they can, cells should look like cells, rather than student accommodation ... It's prison. What else should prisoners expect? They have committed criminal offenses, some of which are horrific, and deserve punishment, not access to a free and easy life, and from what I have seen in Britain and Ireland, that is exactly what it is. There are people who would prefer to be in prison here, who would commit crimes, just to get to prison. So treating them like they are currently being treated here is making the situation worse as well. The purpose of prison is to DETER crime. So if it is to do that, it shouldn't be a pleasant place to be, and if it is to be unpleasant then privileges like their own clothes, pool tables, computer games, digital TV etc should be removed. Death Row conditions are horrific, prisons over here are more like holiday camps. We need a MIDDLE GROUND, where the inmate is adequately punished for their offenses AND eventually rehabilitated so that if and when they are released, we are not releasing angry men and women into society, rather remorseful people who wish to live an honest life. Anyway! Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. As I said, there is little evidence that the more 'punishing' the prison is, the lower the rate of recidivism. There is evidence for the reverse. And many of the 'privileges' are preferred by the administration. It makes for a more manageable population. |
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Post by briseis on Jul 6, 2008 15:23:54 GMT -5
Yes, and it also completely undermines the point of what prison should be; a place where privileges and freedom are removed for the sentence given, as a form of punishment for the crimes committed. There must be a form of punishment. The below article describes how life is so good in British prisons that prisoners are actually ignoring chances to escape! This is a quotation from the article: "There's a classic case in Yorkshire where members of the public were climbing over the prison walls to take drugs into the prison. They put up ladders to climb over the walls, but prisoners were so comfortable in the environment they were living in that none of them tried to climb up the ladders and escape. It tells me there's something wrong in society." He said of other jails: "Prisoners receive a wage for being in prison, they receive a bed, a TV in all cells, Sky television in most areas, free telephones, breakfast in bed on many occasions, cash bonuses for good behaviour, and prison staff are forced to deal with them in such a subservient way. It's ridiculous." www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/The-Yorkshire-jail-where-39life39s.4020099.jpCrime in Britain is going up as leniency in prison goes down. It's the Death Penalty I disagree with, not prison and what it's purpose is. |
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Post by andie on Jul 6, 2008 16:59:54 GMT -5
Also to add, (although I would be in favour of strict conditions until I went to school and learned otherwise) that the prisoners tend to cause more harm then good if treated like crap...basically what happy said..so upon release they would resort back to what brought them to prison because as the movie stated prisons do not offer proper programs such as rewards or rehab to prisoners to get the help they need....it also went on to say that it is a cause for repeat offenders...on the other hand if they are given the proper treatment such as rewards and rehab that they can go back into society. [Canada] Like I said though, I don't want prisons to be a home away from home, then again I don't want there to be any repeat offenders either....so there has to be medium without torture that would really make them not want to be in prison or ever go to prison again. I don't recall using the words 'harsh treatment'. I suggested tougher conditions. Uniforms, no digital TV, no computer games, no pool tables; they should have to do daily 'chores', and have to earn their keep as best they can, cells should look like cells, rather than student accommodation ... It's prison. What else should prisoners expect? They have committed criminal offenses, some of which are horrific, and deserve punishment, not access to a free and easy life, and from what I have seen in Britain and Ireland, that is exactly what it is. There are people who would prefer to be in prison here, who would commit crimes, just to get to prison. So treating them like they are currently being treated here is making the situation worse as well. The purpose of prison is to DETER crime. So if it is to do that, it shouldn't be a pleasant place to be, and if it is to be unpleasant then privileges like their own clothes, pool tables, computer games, digital TV etc should be removed. Death Row conditions are horrific, prisons over here are more like holiday camps. We need a MIDDLE GROUND, where the inmate is adequately punished for their offenses AND eventually rehabilitated so that if and when they are released, we are not releasing angry men and women into society, rather remorseful people who wish to live an honest life. Anyway! Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. As I said, there is little evidence that the more 'punishing' the prison is, the lower the rate of recidivism. There is evidence for the reverse. And many of the 'privileges' are preferred by the administration. It makes for a more manageable population. |
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Post by briseis on Jul 6, 2008 17:02:50 GMT -5
Andie, my thoughts exactly. We need a happy medium.
I never suggested treating them like crap. I suggested 'tougher conditions'. Currently in many prisons, British prisoners are given breakfast in bed, Digital TV in their comfortable cells, free phone calls, etc etc etc, and that is what I disagree with. It is currently a home far better than home! So much better that prisoners ENJOY prison and want to stay, ignoring chances to escape.
Treat them like prisoners, not hotel guests, so that prisons deter crime.
But also, offer a rehabilitation programme prior to release.
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