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Post by onetwobomb on Feb 26, 2006 15:51:48 GMT -5
This may seem like a stupid question, but why ARE you against the death penalty? Some of my friends are against it, and the only reason they have against it is that innocent people may be executed. Well, NO ONE wants innocent people executed. That would be horrible. But what about people who are unquestionably guilty? People like Michael Morales, McVeigh, Gacy, Bundy, etc etc. Why would people want them to live?
Also excluded from this question are people who are family members of death row inmates.
~Thanks, onetwobomb
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Post by jennaleigh on Feb 26, 2006 16:13:45 GMT -5
Ok, lets say a law passed that only the "unquestionably guilty" were executed. And lets also hypothetically say that we are only against the death penalty because of the innocents on death row.
Even though some of those unquestionably guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt are, as you said, unquestionably guilty. However, the vast majority of them do not admit to it, although some do. There are laws as to what is punishable by death and if you fall under that category you get the death penalty. There is no in between. I myself disagree with death penalty, period. As I said in another post, God gave us life and only He should take it away but that's a whole other debate I won't get into. But, anyway, your opinions, my opinions, Tom, Dick and Harry's opinions as to who's guilty and who is not does not neccesarily support fact. So, wouldn't the logical and moral solution be to abolish the death penalty so that no one dies, including the innocent?
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Post by onetwobomb on Feb 26, 2006 16:26:29 GMT -5
I think nowadays the legal system we have is fool-proof. If we have DNA evidence, multiple eye-witnesses, video footage, etc. then theres really no doubt.
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Post by jennaleigh on Feb 26, 2006 16:35:10 GMT -5
I can't disagree with you more on the comment that our legal system is fool-proof. Even if it was fool-proof, we're always going to have those over-agressive prosecutors, corrupt LE, etc. Don't get me wrong, there's no such thing as over-agressive prosecutors if the prosecuting attorney actually believes the defense is actually guilty, rather than pinning the crime(s) on just anyone to 'satisfy the victims family' and even then I don't believe DP is the moral or humane solution to an already tragic situation.
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Post by onetwobomb on Feb 26, 2006 16:49:09 GMT -5
The prosecutors are just doing their job. Their job is to present the Jury with incriminating evidence. I really don't think the jury should be allowed to sentence anyone to death unless they are 100% sure the defendant is guilty. But even if the jury makes a mistake, the system still works. There has been 100 people freed from death row. That to me is proof that the legal system works to punish the guillty and free the innocent.
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Post by jennaleigh on Feb 26, 2006 17:07:12 GMT -5
True enough that DNA has significantly helped the victims of injuctice, but then you also have to realize how many times there has been no DNA in cases to neither support nor discredit a conviction. Not only that, but also the countless times in which evidence has been 'misplaced' or that has tested inconclusive. As for the prosecutors, you're right. Their job IS to present evidence that proves beyond a doubt that the accused is guilty. Their job, however, is NOT to convince a jury to convict a potentially innocent person, at whatever cost THEY deem necessary simply to satisfy an outraged public, the media, victims family, etc.
While I respect your stand, I don't see how you honestly believe our judicial system is fool-proof.
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Post by onetwobomb on Feb 26, 2006 17:18:20 GMT -5
Maybe it isn't exactly fool-proof, but I think if the jury is 100% sure the inmate is guilty, then he should get the death penalty. If there is any reasonable doubt whatsoever, he should get life. I know there may be some corrupt cases which may result in some innocents to be sentenced to death, but then there have been 100 innocents freed later on and even more commuted to life because of insufficient evidence, etc. I heard a case about an innocent man who spent 22 years on death row, only to be proven innocent in the end. I heard he is now suing the prosecutors for lying or something like that, and I support him 100%. If prosecutors or witnesses lie and cause an innocent man to be put on death row, then I believe that they should spend as much time in prison as the innocent person did. And I believe that if someone lies and causes the EXECUTION of an innocent, then whoever lied should get the death penalty as well.
As you know, Roger Keith Coleman always proclaimed his innocence, and he was the most likely innocent of all executed offenders. Turned out he was guilty. This is why I trust in our legal system. But if there is proof than an innocent man has been executed since 1976, I will begin to rethink my faith in the legal system.
And I don't really know if this matters or not, but I am against the death penalty 100% for juveniles.
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Post by jennaleigh on Feb 26, 2006 17:38:01 GMT -5
You said after 22 years he was proven innocent. He may win his lawsuit, but that doe not begin to make up for the 22 years his freedom was lost. Perhaps he missed out on his kids or grandkids growing up, his own personal life goals. All of which can not be brought back.
Like I said, there are so many cases in which there is no DNA evidence. And in witness cases, how many cases have you seen where the witness has recanted their testimony 5, 10 or even 20 years later. We'll never be able to be certain in 100% of cases. Without 100% certainty we leave that window for injustice open.
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Post by peacefulfrog on Feb 26, 2006 18:32:56 GMT -5
Hey onetwobomb, As you can probably tell from my previous posts -- I am completely Anti-DP; Although the reason numerous innocent people get executed each year is a primary reason. It is not the full reason. Allow me to continue; I admit I do not know the full extent of the laws over in the U.S.A. but down in here in New Zealand, if someone gets handed down a life sentence then they get 12 years -- probably be out within 10 on good behavior. Where is justice in that? In my opinion sentences that are given out should be around 25 Years - Life. Brings me to my next point, I know I am generalizing here -- so I apologize if I am wrong -- but most Pro's are for the DP because of the whole justice issue. But as Desmond Tutu said: There are many points, quotes, reasons, beliefs -- you name it -- that I could list to prove my -- what I call a valid -- point. However I shall just finish up with the following quote. Thanks for reading.
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Post by onetwobomb on Feb 26, 2006 19:07:55 GMT -5
jennaleigh - I agree it was terrible that man suffered 22 years behind bars. But that's not a problem with the death penalty, that's a problem with the individual case. Even if he wasn't put on death row, and only got LWOP he would have spent 22 years behind bars anyways. Even more likely, if he were sentenced to LWOP, he might still be in prison. It's because on death row cases are taken a lot more seriously. If he were just sentenced to life, his innocence claims would probably have been ignored. If there is a problem with the death penalty, fix the problem, don't just abolish it altogether.
PeacefulFrog - Numerous innocent people don't get executed each year. I don't know where you get those statistics from. Maybe in China or Iran, but not in the USA. Like I said before, the guy (Roger Keith Coleman) who was by far the most likely executed person in the USA to be innocent was proven guilty via DNA testing 13 years after his execution. If the most likely innocent executed offender is guilty, then so are the rest.
And also, I don't see the death penalty as revenge. I see it only as justice. Everyone on death row has committed horrible crimes, and if you take a life you should pay for it with your life.
Plus, statistics have shown that the death penalty saves up to 18 innocent lives a year. If it saves even one innocent life it is well worth it.
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Post by peacefulfrog on Feb 26, 2006 19:15:00 GMT -5
I'm afraid so many places throughout the U.S. of A. claim that they're is something like in 7 executions at least 1 of the persons are innocent -- or perhaps at the least shouldn't have received the DP. At the moment I do not feel like trying to debating the point. But thanks for your response regardless! I'm just going to finish up with a quote: I look forward to chatting to you again sometime in the future. Peace. - Ben
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Post by onetwobomb on Feb 26, 2006 19:31:16 GMT -5
I am afraid those statistics you see are wrong. People say a lot of things to get their point across. Maybe perhaps you heard that 1 out of every 7 people executed claim that they're innocent? But there has been no proof whatsoever an innocent man has been executed since 1976. If there ever is proof, I will reconsider my support for the DP.
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Post by peacefulfrog on Feb 26, 2006 19:36:06 GMT -5
Regardless of statistics I still think that no one has the right to take the life of someone else -- and yes murderers have already taken the life of someone yet as the old age saying goes "Two wrongs don't make a right." This is also a matter of opinion but the DP and whatnot clearly defies some of the amendments in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I think for now though we should just agree to disagree hmm? - Ben I am afraid those statistics you see are wrong. People say a lot of things to get their point across. Maybe perhaps you heard that 1 out of every 7 people executed claim that they're innocent? But there has been no proof whatsoever an innocent man has been executed since 1976. If there ever is proof, I will reconsider my support for the DP.
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Post by onetwobomb on Feb 26, 2006 20:31:56 GMT -5
Good points, but then I could state the following:
But what about killing in self defense? Is that wrong too?
I agree, but I don't think the death penalty is wrong.
True, but I am strongly against world government. People in other countries shouldn't have the right to tell other countries what to do, unless if a country is committing genocide or waging wars of agression. The US does neither of those.
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Post by sclcookie on Feb 26, 2006 23:44:06 GMT -5
I am afraid those statistics you see are wrong. People say a lot of things to get their point across. Maybe perhaps you heard that 1 out of every 7 people executed claim that they're innocent? But there has been no proof whatsoever an innocent man has been executed since 1976. If there ever is proof, I will reconsider my support for the DP. 1 out of 7 people executed claimed they were innocent? Where did you get that statistic? And "rabid" pros always say if there is ever proof that an innocent person has been executed that they will reconsider their support for the death penalty. That is BULLSH*T! First of all, most people with common sense knows that innocent people are sent to prison and if they think about it, because of an imperfect justice system means there are chances of innocent persons being executed and us never knowing who they are . Pro's I have a "TINY" bit of respect will admit that there probably have been innocent executed. They merely accept the risk.
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