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Post by judywaits4u on Jan 16, 2006 3:01:42 GMT -5
Dear Paleone, You need to learn to interpret statistics and not just simply quote them. Nobody can seriously say that there is not a racial bios when it comes to capital murder charges, death row and executions.
Also nobody can seriously say that people of limited financial means or education are not penalised by the system because they are.
Trying to show that one section does not exist to prove the other, just diminishes your argument, they all exist. Just think about it, who by and largely are the people in the USA with limited financial means and education? People from ethinic minorities. That does not mean that all white people are well of or have great educations.
Love and hugs, Judy
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Post by paleone on Jan 16, 2006 14:45:04 GMT -5
\ Also nobody can seriously say that people of limited financial means or education are not penalised by the system because they are. Trying to show that one section does not exist to prove the other, just diminishes your argument, they all exist. Just think about it, who by and largely are the people in the USA with limited financial means and education? People from ethinic minorities. That does not mean that all white people are well of or have great educations. um...i already said people with limited financial means have issues...and it is pretty much across the board with all races...richard couldn;t afford one, he was white, robert couldn't afford one he was white...my loved one couldn't afford one, he is white...i think probably everyone NOT rich in this country couldn't afford one...Robert's family was quoted i believe 1/2 million for a defense lawyer... heck, it's kind of sad to say that only minorities have low income...i don't even have low income and i know i could never afford an attorney if this type of thing happened to me...my local guy who is not on death row couldn't afford a good lawyer...the list goes on....how many of us really could afford $500,000 for a lawyer in a capital case? not many, that's for sure.... this is just silly...i am not going to argue stuff this petty...what i said wasn't even responded to, i gave numbers that anyone can look up on their own... i already said that there is definately racism within the system but not the ONLY problem...and the race card should not keep getting pulled....like i remember people all over the net were pulling the race card when tookie was not given clemency...ok...well neither did todd willingham, richard cartwright, robert shields...clemency is rarely given regardless of race...of course i'd have loved to see tookie get clemency, but it had nothing to do with his race, it was purely political...no one wants to piss off their precious republican party...bottom line..look what it did to governor ryan when he overturned all the sentences...the state is going after him legally for things he "did while governor" but i guarantee you had he not done the sentence overturning, they'd have "looked the other way"...he pissed off the political leaders in illinois and so of course they decided to attack the death penalty is political..sure the "trial level" may have had corruption, but it's not every case, and it's not a "given" that a minority will get death penalty, because obviously there are over 1500 whites there as well.. i am the last person to have any racial issues...and honestly, even when i talk to my coworkers and friends who are black, they get so annoyed at the race card being pulled for every issue that ever comes up...my one coworker even commented that it pissed her off that people who pull the race card for everything gives her race a bad name....
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Post by judywaits4u on Jan 16, 2006 15:48:46 GMT -5
Dear Paleone, Go to this link and see what has been happening with death warrants and race in PA since the first one was signed after reintroduction in 1985: www.cor.state.pa.us/portal/lib/portal/Warrants_by_Governor.pdfTotal Death Warrants: 314 Race of Inmate: Black: 193 White: 97 Hispanic: 22 Asian: 1 Numbers on Death Row: 224 Black: 135 White: 70 Hispanic: 17 Asian: 2 Can you tell me honestly that there is no racial issue going on here. Love and hugs, Judy
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Post by paleone on Jan 16, 2006 18:48:37 GMT -5
I gave the numbers for the ENTIRE US. It all equals out to the numbers i gave. I am sure if you found another state it might have less. I am just so sick of race cards. And so are many of the black people i know. I am through, this isn't even worth it
Just for kicks i decided to count all the black executed people in 2005 and counted the races of the victims:
18 Black people were executed 9 killed other black people 7 killed white people 2 killed a race that was neither white or black
38 white people were executed in 2005 all except 2 of them killed white people
3 Latino people were executed in 2005 2 killed latino, 1 killed white
1 person who is neither of those 3 executed and his victim was of the same race as him
And more white people were executed in 2005 than black people. So it's a safe bet that the death penalty is handed out to all races.
Again maybe it's being ignored, but i have already stated that there definately are cases that have racism in the trial level. But that does not mean that the entire death penalty or "majority" of it is handed out to minorities.
If we are to fight this system we should use something a little less faulty. Finances, we can argue that because it's fact that it costs more. Deterrance, if it were one the states without the DP would have lower rates. Morals, well that's to each their own, many of us wouldn't want someone executed because we value life. But the moral issue doesn't fly too well in a society that disagrees with us. Race issue gets on everyone's nerves, both black and white alike. I have been arguing this with every type of person, and the race card is one of the weakest arguments against the DP. Of COURSE you will find articles and arguments that it is an issue, which it IS but not as "high" as everyone keeps insisting, because if people are going to argue it, then they need to look at alllllll the white people there as well...i could understand if say 10% of the death row was white and the rest isn't. But the fact of the matter is about 60% of death row is white. So the race argument is weak to say the least.
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Post by phoenix on Feb 1, 2006 20:51:00 GMT -5
Dear Kathy and Elaine, I would not bother with this Andie, she is obviously as thick as two planks and talks nonsense. Nobody is going to teach law and say that "LWOP means that the person will serve twenty-five years." It is BS because even a first term law student would know that LWOP mean life without parole, so therefore they are not going to get parole ever. For somebody to claim to come from Canada and to be studying law there and not know that people sentenced to life in prison are considered for parole after fifthteen years. Not that I knew that already myself but it took three seconds to find it on the internet. Canada like the UK does not have LWOP, which I did know. So let us not reply to this BSer and let her go back to her rabid friends. Love and hugs. Judy Hi Judy!!! Its Andie!!! Its a high school law teacher who told me that and being young and impressionable well you know..BTW u mentioned that I was a life time member on the pro-board, I'm not....I'm quite new actually. So before u type ur BS get the facts straight.
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Post by zamboman on Feb 3, 2006 6:57:00 GMT -5
Dear Paleone, Go to this link and see what has been happening with death warrants and race in PA since the first one was signed after reintroduction in 1985: www.cor.state.pa.us/portal/lib/portal/Warrants_by_Governor.pdfTotal Death Warrants: 314 Race of Inmate: Black: 193 White: 97 Hispanic: 22 Asian: 1 Numbers on Death Row: 224 Black: 135 White: 70 Hispanic: 17 Asian: 2 Can you tell me honestly that there is no racial issue going on here. Love and hugs, Judy Judy actually the trend nationally suggests the opposite and in fact there seem to be more whites that blacks enduring the consquences of their actions. There are couple of states where it can be said that there may be a bit of bias with pennsylvania being one where it would appear the figures are heavily weighted towards the blacks. However as far as the death penalty goes it would appear that it may be likely that many of them will be waiting for a very long time as there have only been 3 executions since 1975. Have a look at the following sights to see what I mean. www.albany.edu/sourcebook/pdf/t4102003.pdfwww.albany.edu/sourcebook/pdf/t6802005.pdfwww.albany.edu/sourcebook/pdf/t686.pdfthis sight shows the number of executed prisioners by year from 1930 and yes in the early years there was an imbalance toward the blacks but it certainly does not seem to be the case now.
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Post by judywaits4u on Feb 3, 2006 7:46:33 GMT -5
Dear Zamboman, If the statistics were not skewed by race the numbers of white people on death row would amount to something like 75% of all people on death row. If you go and look at the actual numbers of murders by race, white people commit considerably more murders than all the other races put together.
Did you know that though white people only account for 50% of vicitms of murder, 80% of capital murder trials involve a white victim.
Love and hugs, Judy
PS: If you go and ask people in the South, they will tell you that often a white murdering a black simply does not get investigated.
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Post by zamboman on Feb 3, 2006 8:55:33 GMT -5
Dear Zamboman, If the statistics were not skewed by race the numbers of white people on death row would amount to something like 75% of all people on death row. If you go and look at the actual numbers of murders by race, white people commit considerably more murders than all the other races put together. Did you know that though white people only account for 50% of vicitms of murder, 80% of capital murder trials involve a white victim. Love and hugs, Judy PS: If you go and ask people in the South, they will tell you that often a white murdering a black simply does not get investigated. Dear Ms Judywaites4u The situation in the souths I would totally believe and is also evident in some of the crime stats from southern states. Seems to be a legacy from days gone by. The black murder convictions / death row numbers have considerably decreased since the sixty's Basically because the death penalty was abolished for rape for which there seemed to be an abnormally high percentage of blacks convicted. 405 blacks had been executed for rape and only 48 whites since 1936 . this would basically unofficially give some weight to what you say as in the old days blacks were often blamed for the rape of white women and especially in the southern states. Today , as I understand it , the convictions for rape by a black man are considerably less and infact the white man exceeds the black in rape convictions. So I do totally agree with your statement.
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Post by judywaits4u on Feb 3, 2006 9:17:56 GMT -5
Since the American Civil War only 27 white people have been executed for killing solely black people, which is less than the annual murde rate of whites murdering black people.
Love and hugs, Judy
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Post by zamboman on Feb 3, 2006 9:51:06 GMT -5
Thankyou Ms Judywaits4u
It is refreshing to be able to discuss issues in a constructive and informatine manner . People can learn alot by just discussing issues rather than attacking them ,
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Post by zamboman on Feb 5, 2006 8:53:03 GMT -5
My concerns have always been the following: 1/ the equality in the death penalty sentance. 2/ the fairness of the judicial system 3/ Socail status in the death penalty 4/ wrongfull convictions due trial missconduct 5/Possible Racism 7/ refusal for retrials after new evidence has been presented. 8/ weather in fact it does have a detirent factor. 9/ what is the real adgenda for the penalty as it seems not all first and second degree murders are the same. 10/ what constitutes a murderer recieving the penalty when others of the same crime don't. After doing extensive research on the web I was vastly comming to the conclusion that the trial process , in many cases, was to blame as it seemd more like a win at all costs situation by the Prosecution and appeared to be more of a games than a serious attempt to secure true justice. Some possibly to gain maximum convictions to secure election statbility. I came across the following sight which has comment made by Prosecutors and Judes which really made me think and confirmed much of what I have conclued.. It still does not totally change my stance on the topic but has added some serious credibilty to the anti stance. people.freenet.de/dpinfo/prosecutors.htmCheck out the judges quotes too...
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Post by skyloom on Feb 5, 2006 11:32:46 GMT -5
You might be interested in taking a look at these websites, as they pertain to some of your concerns: www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/excusesexcusescjs.htmlHow the Right Rationalizes Racial Inequity, Part Two (Criminal Justice) www.innocenceproject.org/causes/Causes and Remedies of Wrongful Convictions Also read the pages on mistaken identifications, official misconduct, false confessions, bad lawyering, junk science, snitches, serology and DNA. www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167Facts About Deterrence and the Death Penalty Also check the DPIC section on "Arbitrariness" at: www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=1328The time permitted for introduction of new evidence varies between and among the states. In Virginia, for instance, it used to be that no new evidence presented after twenty-one days from the conclusion of the trial was considered. I don't know if that's changed now, but I do know that other states are more generous about time limits. The defense has to convince a judge, though, that if the new evidence had been available to a jury, the jury verdict would have been different. Judges are most reluctant to second guess juries. The rationale for this reluctance is that the judges don't know which factors weighed most heavily with the jury in its deliberations and also they are not eager to go against the expressed "will of the people." In addition, as for the "real agenda," politicians (and judges, who are elected in some states, although not in others) are focused on proving that they are "doing something" to respond to public concerns. They often "do something" that does not address the root causes of a problem, but they are "doing something." Generally, "doing something" to get tough on crime is enough to get someone re-elected, whether what s/he is doing actually works or not. People in the U.S. have a very short attention span and rarely take time to evaluate the effectiveness of any given policy over time. They also tend to want to repeat mistakes, probably because they are led to believe that the U.S. never makes mistakes in the first place.
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Post by zamboman on Feb 6, 2006 7:20:25 GMT -5
wow thanks for that info it was really very interesting. Much of it tends to confirm what I had come to believe thruogh my research that to me means I am heading in the right direction. If I am to make a true unbiaed judgment on the death penalty I need such good information to help me along the way. Much of what I will accept is self generated but such sights as the ones above just add to the credibility of the cause . I always try to form my own conclusions on issues and try to eradicate all those component that could be seen as biased which at the end of the day gives me a clear picture. This is had to do when others try and force their opinions , many of which cannot be supported, on you EG: the other sight. Again thankyou for helping and not preaching that is very much appreciated.
Regards Zamboman
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Post by catsan77 on Apr 12, 2006 14:48:41 GMT -5
maybe minorities just murder more.
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Post by sclcookie on Apr 13, 2006 1:19:49 GMT -5
lol Mo - you have some charming expressions. I think all those accused of all crimes do have the right to a defense and to be heard. However I do not think this excuses them when they are found guilty from a just punishment. From my understanding it appears there are two types of "innocent" on death row... The first are those who have had nothing to do with the murder, and the second lost are those who are guilty of murder but not of capital murder (ie should be deserving a lesser penalty)... I think the difference between society and the murderer is that the society should apply a fair punishment after a fair hearing, and the murderer acted on his own selfish desire. yes I think the death penalty is appropriate for murder (I disagree that it is appropriate for minor crimers such as car theft). I don't agree with the argument that capital punishment is a garbage disposal tool, (You could apply that argument to repeat criminals who have never murdered) as I believe punishment should be based on what people have done and what they may do in general. I do believe those who prove a constant danger to the community should be locked up though, but only it should be reviewed frequently if they are not serving time for a crime. I know this last bit sounds contradictory but I think that this last bit should apply to only a few as most get over their criminal inclinations by the age of 40 or they are dead. cyclone ... you said (quote): "You demand the right of a fair trial for a murderer, but you forget that the murderer denied his victim all these rights plus more." what the f*ck you mean by that? do you say that a murderer doesnt deserve a fair trial? what is justice without a fair trial? if you really mean what you said about an accused person not deserving a fair trial then im seriously wondering whos been sh*tting in your brain lately ... Mo-DAWG it's definately a "garbage disposal tool". Think about it. Anyone who rapes and kills a child is f*cking sick in the head. A capital offense, therefore, disposed of properly via execution rather than finding out why that person is like that and hopefully finding ways to prevent future rapists of children/murderers of children. Just because that one is executed, doesn't mean others don't sprout up.
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