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Post by CCADP on May 15, 2005 11:32:28 GMT -5
This concerns Robert Clayton; who CCADP had a page for; and whose cousin is a regular member of this board. OBSERVATIONS by Muriel Duncan www.ucobserver.org/archives/apr01_obs.htmUNITED CHURCH OBSERVER Canada is a world leader in abolishing the death penalty. We should be proud of that. By all accounts Robert Clayton had a strong belief in God that sustained him in his last painful hours. He was calm, thankful for the love that had been shown him, concerned mainly for his family. "I don’t know how to explain it," he told a friend, "I’m worried about my family, but I’m not worried about me." Despite the governor’s office being flooded with letters and e-mails pleading for mercy, Robert "Eagle" Clayton was executed by the State of Oklahoma March 1 at 9:07 p.m. Central Time. He had been on death row for years for a murder he denied committing. His friend Mark Olson was editor and publisher of the U.S. Christian magazine, The Other Side, some 12 years ago when he first came across Clayton. A correspondence grew between them; Clayton wrote a little about his experience on death row for the magazine. Letters became phone calls and over the years their frequency increased. In the last months of his life, Clayton was talking to Olson every day. Olson has long been convinced of his friend’s innocence. Clayton had a very low IQ and was unable to help his court-appointed lawyer at his trial. And, although evidence later surfaced that could have helped him, a new trial was not allowed. So he waited to die and hoped somehow that evidence would be discovered to prove his innocence beyond a doubt. Or that mercy would be found in the governor’s office. Canadians have not had to live with this kind of shadow over us all since the death penalty was eliminated in 1976. And considering the mistakes this country has made with convictions against people like Donald Marshall, Guy Paul Morin and David Milgaard, we are very fortunate we haven’t been in a position to execute. Although some politicians would like the death penalty reinstated, the Supreme Court of Canada recently handed down a decision that further distances this country from those who kill people to stop killing. It ruled that two Canadians accused of murder in Washington State could only be extradited to the United States if assurances were given that, in the case of conviction, the death penalty would not be carried out. Eleven national churches, including the United Church, speaking through the Church Council on Justice and Corrections coalition, have issued a statement applauding the Supreme Court decision: "Neither our sense of morality nor justice stops at the 49th parallel, for any Canadian or Canadian legislator." The coalition believes "state-sanctioned executions are wrong, in every case, for everyone, everywhere." This decision affirms Canada as an abolitionist leader, a country that sees capital punishment as unjust. We can be thankful for that. Robert Clayton called Mark Olson two hours before he was to be killed. They prayed together and talked, Olson says, "about what a gift he had been to me and to so many... about the huge number of people who had written letters and sent e-mails and lifted him up in prayer. He asked me to thank everyone I could. He felt so affirmed, so appreciated, so valued." And in those hours of darkness, in that night when the state took another life out of its own fear, God was there with his child, Robert Clayton. |
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jj
New Arrival
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Post by jj on May 15, 2005 12:01:09 GMT -5
People are always asking what so special about murderer's. Well, when you read stories like these that touch your so much, it stands out so easily.
Those on death row have a reality check that most of us don't even come close to think about. They realize what is so important in life and can touch so many lives in such a special way. they make you think of your own life and things that "use" to be important, don't really matter any more. You realize what is so important in life meeting these guys.
This story just touched my heart so much
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Post by tulla63 on May 15, 2005 12:44:57 GMT -5
People are always asking what so special about murderer's. Well, when you read stories like these that touch your so much, it stands out so easily. Those on death row have a reality check that most of us don't even come close to think about. They realize what is so important in life and can touch so many lives in such a special way. they make you think of your own life and things that "use" to be important, don't really matter any more. You realize what is so important in life meeting these guys. This story just touched my heart so much In addition to what you say: Many feels that in the instances we're talking about the murderers who face death, that the death penalty is so extreme, that the sentence in itself often makes a normal person cringe. Some may even make them out to be something they aren't only for that reason and that isn't right either. But we have to admit that the extreme sentence makes it so much easier to feel a lot more compassion for them. But you're so right in what you say: I've never been able to appricate so many of the "ordinary things" I just see and pass by every day as after I got to know some of these individuals. It has made my life a whole lot richer! A friend of mine uses to tell me: "Take your time and smell the flowers" - that is an expression which may be used for anything - but think about it: TAKE YOUR TIME AND SMELL THE FLOWERS..... Love, Turid |
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Post by cajunricejr on May 16, 2005 8:28:39 GMT -5
Thank you so much for posting this about Robert. He was a very beautiful person. I love him so much. He wasn't scared at all that night. He was smiling and kept mouthing to us that he loved us. He was glad to be getting out of there one way or another. That is what I will always remember about him, he was always smiling. Mark was a really great friend and helped in any way he could, even after Robert's death. Our family owes him, Elaine Pope, and countless others a great debt. So many people tried to help us save his life.
I don't know what else to say but thank you again for posting this. Robert touched many lives, I was lucky to have him in my life and in my children's lives. We miss him a great deal.
Amber
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Post by flyinghighagain on May 17, 2005 10:33:05 GMT -5
By all accounts he truly was a beautiful person....
02-07-2001 - W.A. Drew Edmondson, Attorney General - Clayton Execution Scheduled for March 1
The Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals today set a March 1 execution date for Tulsa death row inmate Robert William Clayton. Clayton, 40, murdered 19-year-old Rhonda Timmons on June 25, 1985, in her Tulsa apartment. She was stabbed 12 times in the chest, neck, side and arms and suffered a fracture to the front of her skull and a large bruise to the back of her head.
Clayton was given a 30-day reprieve Jan. 3 by Lt. Gov. Mary Fallin when misplaced evidence from his case was discovered. Clayton was scheduled to be executed Jan. 4, but the execution was stayed to allow the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation to perform DNA testing on that evidence. On Jan. 16, Edmondson was notified that the OSBI's DNA testing reconfirmed Clayton as the murderer. That same day, Edmondson asked the governor to dissolve the stay. On Jan. 19, Fallin dissolved the death row inmate's stay of execution and Edmondson asked the court to set a new execution date.
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Post by CCADP on May 17, 2005 10:43:10 GMT -5
Hi Flying.... please go and post under the introduce section  so we all know who we are talking to - smile... "He had been on death row for years for a murder he denied committing." "And, although evidence later surfaced that could have helped him, a new trial was not allowed." His family member; posting above you; obviously also believed in his innocence. I am not sure what point you are making with the report of the crime. Yes that is what he is convicted of. Thanks for posting it - maybe you thought no one was aware of it... But guess what? A lot of us here don't take that kind of thing as the gospel truth; since many of us have seen and dealt with wrongful convictions and exonerations and executions of people where lots of possible evidence pointed to the contrary. So whenever we see : "although evidence later surfaced that could have helped him, a new trial was not allowed." that tells us thinking people who have seen manipulations that occur in these cases that he might have been innocent after all. All the evidence was not allowed to be presented. So; therefore; since they refused to evaluate this evidence in open court; as far as I am concerned they never proved his guilt. Since you never met him (I assume) - I'll go by what his cousin said. (by the way she is also a murder victims survivor so if you want to hear some nasty crime stories - she could tell you one!) As far as DNA - OK - sounds convincing. Maybe that means he was guilty... but lets just say we've all seen DNA tampered with too...many cases of technicians found lying - I am not saying that happened here....but anyway; his cousin knows what he was convicted of. |
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Post by flyinghighagain on May 17, 2005 11:45:58 GMT -5
Sure, I will post on the newbie section. I also do not want to get into any debates over this case, or any other really. I will make this simple comment. Your site (I assume) was originally created to bring attention to the "Death Penalty" issue. It is a simple issue, for or against. There can be many reasons a person would choose either. I personally think it serves no value as a deterrent and does not reduce violent crimes in any way. I therfore see no reason to kill someone for any crime. Lock them up for the rest of their lives? yes.
I would also submit to you that if you stuck only to that issue and not allow all this controversy over "guilty or innocent" that your site would be fairly boring to most poeple, and certainly would not be visited by many of the people currently posting. Huge headlines like "INNOCENT ON DEATH ROW" tend to bring in the audience.
Have there been innocent people convicted of crimes? Sure there has. But with the advances in DNA testing among other things, we all hope that becomes less and less frequent.
What really disturbs me is the bleeding hearts all over this site with respect to the blatantly guilty. It's been mentioned on many a post here. If you are against the death penalty thats great. But these constant threads about how wonderful these people are is just not right.
Hey, if one of my kids were locked up for murder I would still love them, thats not the point. But I would certainly not expect the rest of the world to love them. You cant stop loving your own, thats human nature, no matter what they have done they are your flesh and blood. It's a tough thing to face.
For or against, that is the question.
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Post by CCADP on May 17, 2005 11:58:47 GMT -5
The thing is; for the people here; a lot of the people that are just a news story to most ARE family members and friends. Like you said; when its one of your own; you view things differently.
On the guilt or innocence issue - (thats not usually always what gets attention by the way - unfortunately; far more often; its the obviously guilty - serial killers Michael Ross; Charles Ng; or child killers like Richard Allen Davis that gets most attention. It would be nice if innocence issues actually did!) and if you read the thread 'being lied to' in general section; you will find that its very clear on the pages that these are the WORDS of the PRISONER, and if the guy says he's innocent; I've seen enough cases just on our pages who wrote from DR and were later exonerated or released - I say - they're about to KILL him - if thats what he believes; let him SAY it and let the public decide.
Its not about drawing people to a webpage.
Its about giving a voice to someone who is about to be killed. We do that regardless of the harm or damage it does our argument.
as the lead in to the prisoners pages says :
The CCADP is pleased to provide free webpages to death row prisoners. Information on the prisoner webpages is provided by the individual prisoner and his or her supporters. The CCADP has not investigated or verified the information provided on the pages. We are providing this space to the prisoners so they have the opportunity to be heard in a public forum. We invite you to further investigate these cases - both by contacting the prisoner or supporters for more information, and by seeking out other materials available online.
tracy
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Post by flyinghighagain on May 17, 2005 12:15:18 GMT -5
Tracy, I respect everything you have said and also commend you for creating and maintaining the site. I have one myself (unrelated) and its a lot of work and cost. I think you know what I am saying, and I know where you are coming from.
I made my point, thanks for allowing me to. Best wishes with the site and future endeavors.
Scott
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Post by CCADP on May 17, 2005 12:21:24 GMT -5
Hey - not at all - all opinions are welcome and respected here we are just sometimes super sensitive cause this is a place where family members of prisoners come to find support (as well as all the rest of us who visit here who just work on the issue)....Its difficult for these people to find a safe place to talk about their loved ones without fear of being attacked - so we at the board are extra careful to think of how our words might affect people close to these cases.... thanks for joining us ! You are welcome here...! |
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Post by cajunricejr on May 17, 2005 13:01:10 GMT -5
I admit DNA is a great forensic tool and very accurate. It is the source of the blood that concerns me. How can a drop of blood still be red after 16 years? DNA can be corrupted in the hands of humans.....we all make mistakes. As far as the bleeding hearts all over this site, some inmates even the ones who admit their guilt are good people who made a split second decision that they truely regret. I don't believe they should die for it though. I do believe in life without parole. If Robert had gotten life we might have been able to prove his innocence. (I know alot more on this case besides the DNA.) Believe me I could write a book on the evidence we uncovered. There are alot of good people who make bad decisions. Should they die for it?
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Post by tulla63 on May 18, 2005 11:52:35 GMT -5
Absolutely! And it's also true that it would have been even better if humans weren't handling it. Bearing in mind the recent Houston's police crime laboratory scandal, and the Harris County Prosecutor's ability to win convictions based on tainted evidence, I can find no reason to trust the results at all.
Wonder if this is the case with the Houston's police laboratory - only?
Perhaps. I don't know. For all I know, it might be the only crime lab in the nation, and the only DA's office in the entire nation that would ever behave like this.
Those who truly are guilty made a mistake that took away another individual forever. I don't think anyone questions that its not a "mistake", but it goes far beyond being a "mistake", but I do not think we disagree on that.
In some cases LOWP might be necessary. Sad - but possible.
Know what? You SHOULD write that book! I wish you did. Its a sad fact that it seems like a lot of other evidences aren't even considered once there's some lab results including the possibility that they might have the right person. My fear is that the recent scandal with the Houston crime lab isn't the only one.
Five years ago, blood stains on a coverall were being re-tested after Odell Barnes Jr. had been on death row for years. The analysis of the blood stains didn't only reveal human blood matching his, but they found citrus acid in the blood stains. You won't find citrus acid in blood. However, you DO find citrus acid in yellow and blue topped blood tubes. (The type of tubes they use in labs to contain blood samples). In short: The blood stains found on Odell Barnes Jr.'s coveralls had been in yellow or blue topped lab tubes BEFORE they were found on his coveralls.
Odell is dead now. He was murdered March 1. 2000. However, thanks to a bunch of "bleeding heart liberals", Odell did get his case re-investigated, and although I couldn't write a book about his case, I think I can provide tons of materials showing that they killed an innocent man that evening in Texas.
So - why in the whole wide world wouldn't I believe Robert Clayton and cajunricejr over a crime lab?
Love,
Turid
PS: You SHOULD write that book!
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Post by CCADP on May 18, 2005 11:54:21 GMT -5
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Post by cajunricejr on May 18, 2005 23:28:06 GMT -5
I have read over the trial transcripts I know most of it by heart. So many lies and people changing their stories. Eyewitnesses that never testified. This was in an apartment complex around noon. I wish that Oklahoma would have allowed us to have luminol testing done on the overalls and white shirt he had on. They said it couldn't be used because they had been wahsed. GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!!!!! It can be used on carpet that had been chemically cleaned but not if something went thru the washing machine. And just exactly how do you get blood stains out of a white shirt? I am talking about back in 1985. Sorry I don't get it. I am a woman and have had to throw away many a pair of drawers because of my monthly visitor.
Any way I will shut up I am ranting. I could go on and on about the way the cops botched the investigation in the first place. I am not just taking Robert's word for it, I have seen and talked to many people over the years. I have read all the trial transcripts and interview transcripts.
He really was a wonderful person and I really don't care what others think of him, I know the truth.
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Post by tulla63 on May 19, 2005 2:28:52 GMT -5
You're not ranting. You're posting in the thread "Other specific cases", it's the correct place to be posting this about his case. And you're right. Don't believe for one moment it's the first time most of us hear about investigators ignoring what does not fall into their theories and use ONLY what can win them a conviction. Hopefully, all of the items that can later show you right haven't been throwed out so it can be tested later on.
It does not seem helpful, and it's not going to help Robert now, but it clearing his name etc. is also important, and if you want to talk with us about his case, you're NOT ranting and I can see no reason why you shouldn't do that.
I understand why you feel hurt over some of the postings here. There are people around everywhere without enough sensitivity to discuss such in a "matter-of-factly" manner and rather than being curious and ask you of why you are convinced about his innocence, choose to rake you over the coals.
Ignore that.
If they had curiosity about why you have taken that stand, they could ask you a question, and give you a chance to come with an answer.
I'm also starting to get curious about this case......
Hug,
Turid
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so we all know who we are talking to - smile...