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Post by truth1 on May 6, 2005 14:22:55 GMT -5
My reason for posting here is to figure out how the other side thinks. That is all. I am NOT looking to change anyone. I understand why the people here think the way they do. What I am not sure of is would they still feel the way they do if they were a relative of the victim instead? It is easy to say "yes" to that question. However, I would think that some people here would feel quite differently about views on the death penalty. The death penalty is far more humane than the deaths that some of the victims have suffered.
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Post by CCADP on May 6, 2005 14:26:46 GMT -5
the thing I think you're not getting - we realize that these are human beings with families....its NOT about forgetting the victims; its about looking at the WHOLE picture; and reacting in a way that will better society; not drag it down into the gutter. I think you know that the word 'scum' isn't appropriate for a forum that invites family members of these prisoners here - probably the only place these people can attempt to feel safe. So remember; here; a prisoner or a free person - we don't call names. You can say killer or murderer if you want; those aren't exactly terms of affection - but aren't extra digs at people. I don't know why you people always want to set things up as a contest over who should be supported - the victim or their murderer. How about grieving and crying for the victim - which speaking for myself I have done while watching the news sometimes; like in Jessica Lunsford case; and then trying to work to make it a better place so stuff like that doesn't happen again? I'm not just talking anti dp work - I am talking about stiffer laws for child sex offenders; working with juveniles who are having a rough time and could go the wrong way; finding problems in early childhood where there is horrid abuse (like u find in a lot of these cases) and intervening then... Not just say; 'that guys the devil; scum, evil, way different from us other humans, lets kill him! yah! and buy some beer and what do you wear to an execution, whoopee!!! but to look at how we can avoid people going so far off in the future; and avoid any future loss of life; and more kids growing up in a state that killed their parent. I know of two kids now who have been or will be on trial for 2nd degree murder; after their dads were executed - both of them were babies when the dad went to jail. Obviously the death sentence CARRIED OUT on their dads when they were in their teens had little effect on their behavior. We have to try a better way. I mean you guys have to (U.S) - most of the rest of the world already has; and finds it sufficient! "you might say i'm a dreamer....but I'm not the only one.... hope someday you'll join us..... " smile
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Post by CCADP on May 6, 2005 14:34:16 GMT -5
same could be asked of you. If your child was picked up (lets say even guilty) like most death cases its prob. not a planned first degree murder like it should be; and out of all the hundreds of murder cases in the US that month; they pick your child or mom for the death penalty. Would you be supporting it? Really do you think you would??? You think you'd be writing the prosecutor letters commending the DP and telling the defense lawyer; the death penalty is fine; thanks. No; you would not. You would do what tons of other parents I know did - say "I always thought I was for the death penalty; until I saw what its all about; or until they wanted to kill my son"... You'd want your child to live. Can you really say you wouldn't ? Lots of us have signed things saying if anyone does ever kill us that the DP not be sought; and its to be sent to news media; prosecutors and the defense attorney should that ever happen. Some religoious group made these legal documents for people to sign a few years ago. If someone killed my kid or husband; yeah; like most humans I would be angry and feel violent and want to kill them myself; and if I got my hands on them when these base instincts were in full steam maybe I would! But I like to think that if I was making a reasoned decision I wouldn't; and I can tell you any violent impulse I might have to want to cause pain to someone who caused me such pain; would still not mean I would want to live under a government that is allowed; once in awhile, to kill its own citizens. (but only the really bad ones, right!!?!??) I thought you were a libertarian??? Why would you then advocate giving the goverment such awesome powers? Did you read the essay re libertarian response to the DP??? I was hoping you would comment on that.
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Post by truth1 on May 6, 2005 14:40:01 GMT -5
Actually, I think child molesters should receive the death penalty. Rapists as well. As far as the two people on trial for 2nd degree murder, I do not know enough about the case to make a comment. However (you probably knew there was going to be a "however", huh?), you could use the age old cliche "the acorn does not fall far from the tree".
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Post by CCADP on May 6, 2005 14:44:04 GMT -5
then I guess we should just start executing murderer's kids; while they are still young; right? Give me a break... You pro's usually say that despite abuse, molestation, terror; etc in childhood; most people get through it and are fine - you guys say this to negate the fact that many killers were victims and molested children before they were killers and child molesters.... Now; the apple doesn't fall far from the tree??? so NOW when its convenient to say so; people become what they are surrounded with? Which is it? And please address the libertarian issue and debate the other libertarian who wrote that essay I found online.
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Post by CCADP on May 6, 2005 14:44:52 GMT -5
Also - you would be demanding the DP for your child in that instance?
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Post by truth1 on May 6, 2005 14:49:40 GMT -5
I am libertarian as far as their philosophy of personal responsibility is concerned. I really do not fit entirely with any political organization. There are too many people that like to blame other people or things for their actions. Like the Columbine shootings. Did you know there were actually people that tried to blame Marilyn Manson because the shooters listened to his music? How rediculous is that? No one blamed Mozart for Ted Bundy! People blamed him because it was easy and they would almost rather hate Manson more than the shooters. As far as a family member receiving the death sentence is concerned, I would write a letter to prosecutor explaining that the murder was 2nd degree and not capital. I would NOT argue that the death penalty was inhumane. I would certainly have sympathy for my family member. But, remember, the people I was talking about are people that were 100% guilty of capital murder. Allen Davis guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Therefore, in my opinion, he deserved the ultimate sentence.
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jj
New Arrival
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Post by jj on May 6, 2005 14:52:45 GMT -5
Actually, I think child molesters should receive the death penalty. Rapists as well. As far as the two people on trial for 2nd degree murder, I do not know enough about the case to make a comment. However (you probably knew there was going to be a "however", huh?), you could use the age old cliche "the acorn does not fall far from the tree". That is not necessarily true. I have seen good kids come from bad homes and bad kids from good homes. What most people don't realize is that when a child who has a parent on death row and that parent is executed, that child has a lot of anger inside, society takes their anger out on them and they do not understand. They have no one to turn to, no counseling, living in a single parent home. They need intervention and help, not judgement
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Post by CCADP on May 6, 2005 14:53:16 GMT -5
OK; then if your child was guilty of FIRST degree murder under the law; or your mom...you seriously would encourage the death penalty be given and applied? Honestly?
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Post by truth1 on May 6, 2005 15:22:36 GMT -5
I would not encourage it, but I would not say that it is wrong. They knew what they were risking and what the consequences were.
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Post by CCADP on May 6, 2005 15:26:44 GMT -5
why wouldn't you encourage it? You encourage the DP for other first degree murderers. Why would your family member be any different? And in most cases; you KNOW; they are not intelligently weighing the pros and cons with a clear mind and then deciding to kill! No one would risk death....or life in prison....to get the best of an argument; to get out of a divorce, to get a life insurance policy; whatever the crime was committed for...if they were thinking clearly!
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Turid
New Arrival
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Post by Turid on May 6, 2005 17:35:52 GMT -5
I did not think that the word "scum" would ruffle any feathers. I chose that word in particular because I decided the more accurate and colorful adjectives would have been deemed by some as inappropriate. You crossed a line when you started the name calling. On top of it, you refer to that expression as being "accurate, and colorful" - and you still didn't anticipate you would ruffle any feathers. Truth: Are you here simply to confuse the discussion and to mess up the issues? If I'm wrong, I am sorry. So please prove me wrong and stick to the issue at hand, please. Thank you, Turid
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Post by truth1 on May 9, 2005 7:23:43 GMT -5
Turid, you are not correctly reading what I wrote (again!). I said I LEFT OUT words that were more accurate and colorful. I did not say "scum" was accurate and colorful. Please read carefully before you post. Thank you.
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Post by oztash on May 9, 2005 9:20:06 GMT -5
Ok guys Ive read all the post here for this one and theres something I wanted to say to Truth....
Iam sorry if I am saying something that others have said, please excuse me if I do..
Truth, please dont get me wrong, I feel so sorry for the victims family,, my heart trully aches for them... But I also believe that when the murder is executed that his family and loved one's become victims... Now you will proberly not like this, but is it not true that there family had to watch as their son.daughter, father,etc is murderd, yet you never hear anyone call his.her family victims...why is this, they have a child etc murderd, where is the pro's support for the family...
Please dont tell me this is differednt, cause its not,,,, they are murder victims....This is why Iam against the death penalty....
And one more thing, when the dr prisioner is executed, and his children or family members watched this, what about the hate and anger that builds up in them, over the years... Seems to me that its a ticking time bomb waiting to explode...
Tracey,Turid,joy, maggie,Truth I would love to hear your thoughts on this... I apologise if I have offended anyone. this is just my 2 cents
Love Tasha
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Post by cajunricejr on May 9, 2005 9:32:07 GMT -5
I have been on both sides of the issue. I have witnessed one of my family members execution in 2001, and also had a 14 year old family member kidnapped, raped, and buried in a shallow grave. He was not found for almost a month. That was this year. I have no desire for the guy who did this to recieve the death penalty. I want him to have to live with what he done as long as we can keep him on this earth. That is just my opinion from my experiences.
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